The Medium/Witch at Endor, 1 Samuel 28:3-25

[unsafe]

Waterfall ---you said ------Where exactly does it say that God himself condemns witchcraft

Leviticus 20:6 (GW)​

6 “I will condemn people who turn to mediums and psychics and chase after them as though they were prostitutes. I will exclude them from the people.

 

[Luce NDs]

Will the will die if the folk learn something? God assist ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

“I will condemn people who turn to mediums and psychics and chase after them as though they were prostitutes.

Gramatically, however, the condemnation is not for those who "turn to mediums and psychics" but rather "chase after them".

Sounds more like, "sure, go see the Medium to get reassurance that your loved one is okay, but don't go back again and again".

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed ---you said ----Sounds more like, "sure, go see the Medium to get reassurance that your loved one is okay, but don't go back again and again".

I wouldn't be to sure about that ------this that God puts forth about how He feels about mediums and the like is pretty harsh so I don't think God would say it is OK to go see one to get reassurance that your loved one is OK -----

Leviticus 20:27 (AMPC)​

And the Lord said to Moses,
27 A man or woman who is a medium and has a familiar spirit or is a wizard shall surely be put to death, be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Again, grammatically, you need to be a medium AND have a "familiar spirit". And here we're distinguishing between wizards and mediums. It still reads as if you're all good if you're a medium WITHOUT a "familiar spirit". Whatever that is. There's no indication that mediums/wizards are a real thing any more than fish who swallow people, arks that hold the world's worth of critters, or talking donkeys.

BTW, has anyone reading had any successful communication with late loved ones via a medium? *Listens for crickets*

I'm wondering if the message is that Saul might have been better off just carrying on with prayer, and hoping that God would one day start to speak again.

 

[Lastpointe]

I don’t know anyone who has ever had a conversation through a medium. It I expect you have to believe in that in order for it to work for you

i am reminded of Ghost. Where Whoopi Goldberg’s character pretends to contact people and then does actually contact people. To me, most contacts would be of the pretending type. But that is because I don’t believe in it

 

[Luce NDs]

Heh-heh ... what we don't know is astounding beyond any sense of mediocre!

Imagine the vast and dark unknown ... that should be probed to see what is dangerous there ... that is other than the brute naivete that is dangerous here and now ...

 

[Luce NDs]

There is a philosophical basis for avoiding the unknown as it may make you feel insecure and unsafe if you have been separated from everything that is God to a certain degree! Thus the word autonomy ... also related to the growing incidence of autism ... automatic believing in the most insane concerns!

It is just normal for those not interested in anything beyond the aforesaid ... basically nothing in their interest! Thus it goes down ...

 

[Mendalla]

BTW, has anyone reading had any successful communication with late loved ones via a medium? *Listens for crickets*

To be fair, I have never really tried. Fooled around with ouija boards as a kid but didn't really believe it even then. My thought would be that if you believe enough to fork over money to a medium, you probably believe enough to get an answer. Skeptics will likely get negative results, but are also less likely to try, unless they are trying to debunk the medium or something.

So I would suggest that Saul believed it, even if he thought it was wrong to do it.

 

[unsafe]

Comment from Post # 45 ------I'm wondering if the message is that Saul might have been better off just carrying on with prayer, and hoping that God would one day start to speak again.

I say
All Saul needed to do was repent and stay faithful in his obedience to God -------you see God didn't abandon Saul --God is always present for us -----Saul abandoned God by and through his disobedience and sin -----God is a Holy God and cannot entertain sinners when it comes to answered prayer -----and Isaiah 59:2 is clear on this ------as is John 9:31 and there are a couple of more scriptures on this as well ---! Peter 3:12 ---Psalms 66:18 --Proverbs 15:29

Isaiah 59:2 (AMPC)​

2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.

I say -----Saul was very Blessed by God when He chose him to be King over Israel ---Saul tasted the good life ---the power and ability that only God can provide ------But Saul allowed pride and envy and jealousy to creep in and that was Saul's downfall ---And so Saul through off God and allowed his evil emotions to destroy his relationship with God -------God gave human kind free will and Saul chose his path all on his own -------

1 Samuel 18:7-9 (NLV)​

7 The women sang as they played, and said, “Saul has killed his thousands, and David his ten thousands.” 8 Then Saul became very angry. This saying did not please him. He said, “They have given David honor for ten thousands, but for me only thousands. Now what more can he have but to be king?” 9 And Saul was jealous and did not trust David from that day on.

I say ----this is a big lesson for Christians today ----- this shows how easy it is for a Christian to slip back into their old ways -----and widen the gap between them and God ---it is easy to talk the talk ---a lot harder to walk the talk -------With God at the helm things were good for Saul ---without God life became sour and bad things happened to him ---he was plagued by a bad spirit ---he was afraid --his confidence left him ---he was going to die because of his unfaithfulness ---and his bad choices ---

1 Chronicles 10:13-14 (NLT)​

13 So Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord. He failed to obey the Lord’s command, and he even consulted a medium 14 instead of asking the Lord for guidance. So the Lord killed him and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

 

[Redbaron]

There is a phrase in one of the ancient creeds about 'the communion of saints' that comes to mind when I read this passage. Granted the Creed would be like 1500 years (plus or minus) later than this event in the life of Saul. But the phrase does seem to point to a connection between living and dead, actually whether they be saints or not. Though Charles Wesley describes the separation as 'The narrow stream of death,' it seems more like a vast ocean from where I stand. Yet there is a connection, says the creed. As Albus Dumbledore once asked Harry Potter, 'Do you think the people we love ever really leave us?' or question to that effect. Not such an easy question to answer, when you think about it.

 

[BetteTheRed]

God is a Holy God and cannot entertain sinners when it comes to answered prayer

Well, that's a wyrd comment.

Who wrote the most "prayers" in the Hebrew Bible? That would be David, right? Are not the psalms the "prayers" of the Hebrew Bible? Whether true or not, most Psalms are attributed to David.

Same David who slept with the only wife of a poor man and had him murdered? Not a "sinner"?

Like I said, a wyrd juxtaposition of ideas, especially in light of this passage.

 

[unsafe]

BetteThered ------so what it is in this scripture that you don't understand -------Pretty plainly stated in my view ----

Isaiah 59:2 (AMPC)​

2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.

And not all the Psalms were written by David ------you should research that -------

So what is your point -------???????

And why do you or anyone for that matter expect that you can carry iniquity in your heart and just act as you like----- sin as you like and expect a Holy God to come to your beck and call while never giving God the time of day ---that is just such arrogant thinking --------

He never answered Saul because Saul was unfaithful and did not trust God and pulled away from Him all on his own ---and if you do your research you will find that when Abraham disobeyed and didn't trust God to do what he said and had Ishmael by his own way --God didn't speak to Abraham until Ishmael was 13 years old --so there is a 13 year gap that Abraham himself turned God From him ------so we cannot disobey God and sin as we like and have God answer our prayers -----and we should not expect it ------

 

[BetteTheRed]

2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.

And not all the Psalms were written by David ------you should research that -------

So what is your point -------???????

My point was your quote, "God can't entertain the prayers of sinners", referring to Saul, and whatever errors he might have made. He certainly didn't steal a common man's only wife, then have the man killed, like David did.

So why God answered the "prayers" that David wrote (even if he didn't write all 151 of them), even to the point that those prayers of David have become the central prayers of two major religions, and wouldn't hear Saul, is a very interesting point. To me. If it's not interesting to you, please don't respond. Because you seem to be breaking your own rules about a plain reading of the text, whilst simultaneously dissing other people's legit, and properly researched ideas.

It doesn't make for conversation. It's makes for a verbal dictatorship, and I'm sick of it. Consider yourself on Ignore, unsafe. You suck the life out of conversations.

 

[Mendalla]

As Albus Dumbledore once asked Harry Potter, 'Do you think the people we love ever really leave us?' or question to that effect. Not such an easy question to answer, when you think about it.

They are there as memories, not ghosts, IMHO. I do not believe that I could go to a medium to consult my late mother, but I could try to remember things she said or did that might guide me. If I visit her grave, its about memories, not trying to raise her ghost (or whatever).

 

[unsafe]

BettETheRed --------
Consider yourself on Ignore, unsafe. You suck the life out of conversations.

LOL ----Ignore all you want ---it makes no difference to me ---You just don't like the truth of Scripture is all like many others -------if people think that the truth of Scripture sucks the life out of their conversation cause they don'r like what God says then that is their problem ------it has nothing to do with the conversation and all to do with not liking truth ------

We only like to have the soft Scripture posted ---we don't like the hard scripture posted as it burst our bubble -----

All have sinned -----David is no exception ----

Saul who was a believer became an unbeliever and wanted his cake and eat it to -----He wanted to sin and have God at his beck and call and expect Him to be there when he wanted ---Saul is the perfect example of that in this Chapter ----God didn't answer-----God knows what is in the heart of a person ------

This is why God chose David --! Samuel 13 -----verse 14 --God knows who and who will not be faithful to Him in their heart -----

13 “You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. “You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the Lord’s command.”

Acts 13 says this about David -----

Acts 13:21-22 (AMPC)
21 Then they asked for a king; and God gave them Saul son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.
22 And when He had deposed him, He raised up David to be their king; of him He bore witness and said, I have found David son of Jesse a man after My own heart, who will do all My will and carry out My program fully.

And by the way -----on answered prayer ------

Jesus makes it very cleat that there is proper protocol for answered prayer in the New Testament as well so all can argue that to --but that will not change the scripture or how God answers prayers -------

 

[BetteTheRed]

They are there as memories, not ghosts, IMHO. I do not believe that I could go to a medium to consult my late mother, but I could try to remember things she said or did that might guide me. If I visit her grave, its about memories, not trying to raise her ghost (or whatever).

One thing I found intriguing about this story is that the "ghost" of Samuel was annoyed at being disturbed. From what? Sleep? Virgins?

 

[unsafe]

In this Chapter it also mentions the Urim

So what actually is this ------this is the piece of Scripture in 1Samuel 28 using this term -----

1 Samuel 28:6 (CEB)​

6 When Saul questioned the Lord, the Lord didn’t answer him—not by dreams, not by the Urim, and not by the prophets.


Exodus 28 gives us a clue on this -----I am just posting parts of this ---you can read all yourselves if interested ------

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 28 - New International Version

The Priestly Garments - “Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron to give him dignity and honor. Tell all the skilled workers to whom I...

classic.biblegateway.com

Exodus 28 (NIV)​

The Priestly Garments​

28 “Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. 2 Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron to give him dignity and honor.

4 These are the garments they are to make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash. They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests. 5 Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.

The Breastpiece​

17 Then mount four rows of precious stones on it. The first row shall be carnelian, chrysolite and beryl; 18 the second row shall be turquoise, lapis lazuli and emerald; 19 the third row shall be jacinth, agate and amethyst; 20 the fourth row shall be topaz, onyx and jasper.[b] Mount them in gold filigree settings. 21 There are to be twelve stones, one for each of the names of the sons of Israel, each engraved like a seal with the name of one of the twelve tribes.

29 “Whenever Aaron enters the Holy Place, he will bear the names of the sons of Israel over his heart on the breastpiece of decision as a continuing memorial before the Lord.

30 Also put the Urim and the Thummim in the breastpiece, so they may be over Aaron’s heart whenever he enters the presence of the Lord. Thus Aaron will always bear the means of making decisions for the Israelites over his heart before the Lord.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So the Urim was a gemstone and the word Urim apparently in Hebrew means lights ------

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

Strong's Hebrew: 224. אוּרִים (Urim) -- Urim

Urim
Plur of 'uwr; lights; Urim, the oracular brilliancy of the figures in the high-priest's breastplate -- Urim.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say ---just posting this from Got Questions on it ---you again can read all yourselves ----

What were the Urim and Thummim? | GotQuestions.org

What were the Urim and Thummim? How did God use the Urim and Thummim to give guidance to the Israelites?

www.gotquestions.org

References to the Urim and Thummim are rare in the Bible. They are first mentioned in the description of the breastplate of judgment (Exodus 28:30; Leviticus 8:8). When Joshua succeeded Moses as leader over Israel, he was to receive answers from God by means of the Urim through Eleazar the high priest (Numbers 27:21). The Urim and Thummim are next mentioned in Moses’ dying blessing upon Levi (Deuteronomy 33:8). The following Scriptures likely also speak of the Urim and Thummim: Joshua 7:14-18; 1 Samuel 14:37-45; and 2 Samuel 21:1.

 

[Lastpointe]

One thing I found intriguing about this story is that the "ghost" of Samuel was annoyed at being disturbed. From what? Sleep? Virgins?

I find that a funny part of it too. He was busy? Doing what exactly?

or maybe he just didn’t want to get pulled back from heaven? But it is a funny part of the story to me

 

[Mendalla]

There is a definite implication of some kind of afterlife there, which is odd for the Hebrew scriptures (as discussed in the Ehrman book some of us have been discussing in Study Groups). Belief in resurrection did exist in Judaism before Christianity emerged, but it came along well after the exile in Babylon when most of the Jewish scriptures were already written. And there doesn't seem to have been a belief in a separate, immortal soul as we see with the Greeks.

It really feels like someone being awakened from a nap and getting a bit pissy about it. I have been known to do that. So maybe the afterlife is just a cozy, dreamy sleep state?