The Joys of John

[unsafe]

Yesterday @Mendalla and @Waterfall were discussing the theology of the Trinity. John stresses correct belief throughout his gospel but he doesn't completely define it anywhere I can see.

I think John gives a clear picture about the trinity in John 14 --???????

 

[Waterfall]

Within the narrative arc of John the LAzarus event is significant. IT leads more people to come to JEsus and is a key reason the leadership starts to feel threatened by Jesus' popularity. This leads tothe decision that Jesus must die

Were Jesus' followers all that significant at that place in time to be that threatening?
Reading ahead, Caiphus does suggest the reason he should be killed...sacrifice one to save the nation.

 

[Mendalla]

"He is dangerous" as Caiaphas sings in JC Superstar. Of course, this is all coming from Jesus' propagandists years later. Was he really that important or dangerous compared to other claimed Messianic figures? After all, it was the leaders of the 67-70AD revolt and then Simon bar Kokhba a century later who went the military route. We never saw any sign of Jesus going there, at least in the canonical sources.

 

[GordW]

Kind of the straw that broke the camel's back then?

In John yes. In the synoptics it appears to have been the clearing of the Temple (which as we discussed earlier John puts at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)

 

[Waterfall]

I think John gives a clear picture about the trinity in John 14 --???????

View attachment 11009

Isn't this about the promise of the Holy Spirit coming after he's gone?

 

[GordW]

Isn't this about the promise of the Holy Spirit coming after he's gone?

The promise of the HOly Sprit/Advocate actually comes just after that, starting in verse 25. But we are jumping forward, we can talk about that when we get there.

But for the moment, personally I would not say that anything in Scripture talks about the Trinity as the doctrine eventually came to be developed. There are passages which can be said to point toward the doctrine that will be developed (because they are passages used in the debates that developed the doctrine 3 centuries later).

 

[Waterfall]

The promise of the HOly Sprit/Advocate actually comes just after that, starting in verse 25. But we are jumping forward, we can talk about that when we get there.

But for the moment, personally I would not say that anything in Scripture talks about the Trinity as the doctrine eventually came to be developed. There are passages which can be said to point toward the doctrine that will be developed (because they are passages used in the debates that developed the doctrine 3 centuries later).

Such as the "Johannine Comma"?

 

[unsafe]

Isn't this about the promise of the Holy Spirit coming after he's gone?

Ya for sure it is ---just posted it cause it gives you the Trinity -----The Father --Son and Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament does not permanently indwell the person ---the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament indwelled certain people to do a task for God but then withdrew ----most of the time the Holy Spirit would come upon the person in the Old Testament to do God's work --

The permanently indwelling of the Holy Spirit came after Jesus died and was resurrected -the Disciple were the first to have the permanently indwelling of the Holy Spirit ---and that happened in the locked room where Jesus just appears -----

AI
In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit (also called the "Spirit of God" or "Ruach") was not portrayed as dwelling in believers permanently, as in the New Testament. Instead, the Spirit came upon individuals for specific tasks or purposes, and the Spirit would then depart once the task was completed. The Old Testament also highlights the Spirit's role in restraining sin and the power of Satan.

 

[Waterfall]

Ya for sure it is ---just posted it cause it gives you the Trinity -----The Father --Son and Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament does not permanently indwell the person ---the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament indwelled certain people to do a task for God but then withdrew ----most of the time the Holy Spirit would come upon the person in the Old Testament to do God's work --

The permanently indwelling of the Holy Spirit came after Jesus died and was resurrected -the Disciple were the first to have the permanently indwelling of the Holy Spirit ---and that happened in the locked room where Jesus just appears -----

AI
In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit (also called the "Spirit of God" or "Ruach") was not portrayed as dwelling in believers permanently, as in the New Testament. Instead, the Spirit came upon individuals for specific tasks or purposes, and the Spirit would then depart once the task was completed. The Old Testament also highlights the Spirit's role in restraining sin and the power of Satan.

In Judaism the Holy Spirit is seen as a quality of God that represents God's influence and presence in the world. Eg. prophecy, guidance, creation etc.....
Why wouldn't Jesus still agree with that?

 

[Mendalla]

I'm curious, where in the NT does it talk about a permanent indwelling of the Spirit? That's never been my understanding of how the Spirit worked. Some might have more of an open channel to the Spirit, but not a literal permanent presence. So somewhere between the OT and NT versions as @unsafe explained them. To be fair, my understanding might be affected somewhat by classical notions of spirits inspiring people, e.g. the relationship artists had with the Muses or Socrates "daimon", the spirit he claimed was his source of wisdom and inspiration. Actually, the latter is probably not far off from the "indwelling" idea the way Socrates talks about it.

 

[unsafe]

I'm curious, where in the NT does it talk about a permanent indwelling of the Spirit?

we are coming to it in John 14

Role of the Spirit​

16;And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another ]Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby), to be with you forever—

17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive [and take to its heart] because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He (the Holy Spirit) remains with you continually and will be in you.

read for yourselves

What is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

What is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What does it mean that the Holy Spirit indwells believers in Christ?

www.gotquestions.org

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the action by which God takes up permanent residence in the body of a believer in Jesus Christ.

AI

Yes, Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells believers permanently. When a person receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit is given to them and dwells within them forever. This indwelling is a sign of God's love and presence, and it empowers believers to live according to God's will.

 

[paradox3]

John 11: 45-57

Bible Gateway passage: John 11:45-57 - New English Translation

The Response of the Jewish Leaders - Then many of the people, who had come with Mary and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went to the Pharisees and reported to them what Jesus had done. So the chief priests and the Pharisees called the council together and said...

www.biblegateway.com

Many of the people believe in Jesus but others report him to the Pharisees.

The council is called together and is concerned about Jesus performing miraculous signs. If they allow him to continue, everyone will believe in him! They fear the Romans will step in and take away their sanctuary and their nation.

Caiaphas, high priest for the year, pronounces it will be better for one man to die than for the whole nation to perish. He prophecies that Jesus will die not only for the Jewish nation but to bring together all the children of God who are scattered.

The chief priests and Pharisees plot together to arrest and kill Jesus.

Jesus retreats to the town of Ephraim and stays there with his disciples.

 

[paradox3]

Why would the Romans even care about Jesus performing miraculous signs?

 

[paradox3]

As I think about it. . .

It's probably not the miraculous signs that are so worrisome to the Council. It must be the political implications of the people believing in Jesus which concern them so much.

I read somewhere that the Romans actually appointed the high priest. The Jewish nation was permitted to practice its religion but the religious leaders were expected to maintain control.

It must have been an uneasy peace which Jesus could have toppled with all his revolutionary talk.

 

[Mendalla]

Yeah, I'm not sure the Romans themselves were that concerned. The temple leaders were the ones concerned and part of that was concern that if Jesus' and his mob got out of hand, the Romans would get concerned.

 

[paradox3]

Yeah, I'm not sure the Romans themselves were that concerned. The temple leaders were the ones concerned and part of that was concern that if Jesus' and his mob got out of hand, the Romans would get concerned.

This must be it exactly. I am reminded of the wonderful spiritual novel Watership Down

 

[unsafe]

So in these last verses --we see that some of the Jews went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus did ---

So the Chief Priests were( Sanhedrin ) and Pharisees called a meeting with the Sanhedrin council to see what they could do ===

The Sanhedrins were in their positions by the Roman rule ---So the Sanhedrins were political -The Pharisees were not as Political as the Sanhedrin's ----So the Sanhedrins were really nervous as they had a lot to loose ----- if the people started to believe in Jesus more than the them and their ways ---The Romans would come and suppress and destroy their Temple -- and their Jewish nation -----They wanted Jesus very badly out of the way -----

This is where it gets very interesting ------this right here ---Shows that God will use who He wants to speak through ----and the person doesn't realize that it is God Speaking through them ---They think that they are the one speaking and the idea they are putting forward id from them themselves ----So COOL

So here we have Caiaphas a Sanhedrin ----High Priest who is speaking a prophecy here but doesn't know it ----he believes that he is saying this to benefit them ----

He has not a clue what he is predicting here ------using AMPC ---verses 49-50

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was the high priest that year, declared, You know nothing at all!

50 Nor do you understand or reason out that it is expedient and better for your own welfare that one man should die on behalf of the people than that the whole nation should perish (be destroyed, ruined).

I say -----And this scripture tells you he was not speaking on his own ----what came from his mouth came from God as a prophecy -----

51 Now he did not say this simply of his own accord [he was not self-moved];
but being the high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was to die for the nation,

I say -------Jesus of course knew what they were plotting and left as His time had not come and retired to the wilderness ---

The Jewish Passover was near and they were all on the look out for Jesus to appear so they could arrest him ----

I say --these people must have been totally Emotionally Exhausted from their constant thinking of plotting to trying to trap ---corner --destroy and kill Jesus ---their mind probable went 24 hours a day -----can you imagine the stress --the fear --the anxiety --on a daily bases
-I bet their hair went Grey very early ---

 

[paradox3]

Nice touch of humor there @unsafe. The woman in my mirror looks an awful lot like my mom. More and more each year.

Interesting thought that God was using Caiaphas to prophecy the future. His words have always seemed like foreshadowing to me but in an odd way.

 

[Mendalla]

I wish I had enough hair left to worry about grey hair. Looking at my scalp is more depressing than that would be.

 

[GordW]

I wish I had enough hair left to worry about grey hair. Looking at my scalp is more depressing than that would be.

I know what you mean