The Joys of John

[paradox3]

Hi all (@unsafe and any others who join us).

I started reading John's Gospel today during my morning reflection time. For this thread, I plan to note briefly what I read every day and maybe post a few comments. So it will be less structured than Snoopy's previous bible studies.

I will provide the daily link. This will help me to keep track of where I am.

John 1:1-13

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1-13 - New English Translation

The Prologue to the Gospel - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the...

www.biblegateway.com

The prologue begins with powerful words that remind me of Genesis.

 

[Mendalla]

Yeah, I am quite fond of the opening words of John. Very majestic and sets quite a different tone from the Synoptics. It is also one of the passages where I can still appreciate the KJV. The language works well for this kind of poetic, majestic passage. Now, does it mean much to me spiritually today? That's a tougher one. Maybe in a very high-level, abstract way. It really doesn't play as well for a non-theist agnostic as some other passages.

 

[unsafe]

In the Beginning --is definitely from Genesis for sure ------So we see John telling us Spiritually why Jesus is part of the Father ------as Jesus is the Word who created everything as the Father Spoke -as in Genesis ----

This passage tells us that God the Father and God the Son are two separate entities ----each with different functions -----so it gives us the work and Nature of the Word as the Father spoke ----

John the Baptise was sent by God to be a witness to the Light -so John was the forerunner for the Word so all might believe in Christ who is the light through his repentance Ministry ---

I say ======Darkness by itself does not harbour evil----it is just the absence of Light ----I believe --We humans have manually manipulated our minds to think that darkness harbours evil --

We see in verse 10 Jesus is in the world already ---He came to claim what was His -----as He created everything --including us Humans ---who many rejected---but some accepted and are called God's Children ----

I say ------No where in Scripture does it say we are all God's children --We Humans have just taken that we are created in God's image and have assumed we are all God's children ----this is False doctrine --

Posting verses 12 and 13 together here from John 1 --you can't separate Verses 12 and 13 ---they go together ---Amp B

12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name—

13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
Also read
Romans 9:8 ---

 

[paradox3]

Nice to have two different perspectives here already @Mendalla and @unsafe. Thanks for stopping by.

John doesn't waste any time presenting his theology, does he?

 

[GordW]

Hi all (@unsafe and any others who join us).

I started reading John's Gospel today during my morning reflection time. For this thread, I plan to note briefly what I read every day and maybe post a few comments. So it will be less structured than Snoopy's previous bible studies.

I will provide the daily link. This will help me to keep track of where I am.

John 1:1-13

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1-13 - New English Translation

The Prologue to the Gospel - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the...

www.biblegateway.com

The prologue begins with powerful words that remind me of Genesis.

John's prologue is, imo, a poetic masterpiece that certainly does launch us right in to John's understanding of who Jesus is.

I am of a mixed opinion on the Gospel of John. I never used to like it much at all but as I get older I am developing more of an attraction for it. even though I don't share John's high Christological understanding

 

[Mendalla]

The high Christology is almost what makes this appealing. The idea of Jesus being the embodiment of God's Word that has been there from the beginning really opens the mind up more than the more down-to-Earth portrayals we see in the Synoptics. And this notion of God's eternal Word is quite powerful on its own, even without the incarnation being added in.

 

[unsafe]

even though I don't share John's high Christological understanding

For you -----what in John's Christological understanding of John 1 don't you agree with ? or share in

Is it the whole chapter of just some of it ?

 

[GordW]

I have a lower Christology than John. I don't see Jesus as the pre-existent Word (though this is one of those places where my theology is shifting a bit over the years).

 

[Mendalla]

I've always wondered what that actually means, but I guess in cultural context, esp. given the creation narrative that John 1 mirrors to some degree, the concept makes a certain sense. God was before all else, so was God's Word.

What does the notion of a pre-existent Word mean in a potentially infinite multiverse where time is really just a matter of perception, as modern physics increasingly suggests might be the case? I supposed it could be a "Word" inherent in the structure of space-time that "pre-exists" as far as Earth and humanity are concerned that was then given form in Jesus. Interesting to think about.

 

[Waterfall]

If Jesus is the logos, meaning wisdom and reason and always existed, why is a physical birth narrative necessary in the other gospels?
Is there a different kind of birth narrative in John?

 

[Mendalla]

If Jesus is the logos, meaning wisdom and reason and always existed, why is a physical birth narrative necessary in the other gospels?

The birth is that Logos coming into the world, incarnating as a specific human being chosen for the role by God, which the Gospels see as necessary for the salvation of humanity. Or so I understand it.

Is there a different kind of birth narrative in John?

That's the next passage (beginning at 1:14) which I imagine will be the subject of tomorrow's Snoopy post. But it's not a conventional birth narrative, more of a declaration about the meaning of the incarnation.

 

[unsafe]

If Jesus is the logos,

Jesus is not the Logos -----Jesus is the Divine word of God who Creates -----Logos is just the written word ----then there is the Spoken Word of God this Word creates ------today it is called the Rhema word ---the Hebrew word is Davar -----

Interesting read from AI

AI
Biblical Significance:
The word "davar" is used extensively in the Hebrew Bible, referring to the spoken word of God or a matter of importance

"Jesus is Davar" (דבר) can be interpreted as referring to Jesus as the "Word" of God, echoing the Greek term "Logos"(written word ) in John 1:1, which describes Jesus as the divine word made flesh.

adding this

In the context of Jewish thought and the Hebrew language, "davar" (דָּבָר) means "word," "speech," or "thing," reflecting the belief that words are a creative force and the foundation of reality, as God created the universe through words.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• 
  
• Creative Power of Words:
  Jewish tradition emphasizes the power of words, viewing them as a fundamental aspect of creation. God is believed to have brought the universe into existence through speaking, making words the creative energy of the world.

 

[Waterfall]

Jesus is not the Logos -----Jesus is the Divine word of God who Creates -----Logos is just the written word ----then there is the Spoken Word of God this Word creates ------today it is called the Rhema word ---the Hebrew word is Davar -----

Interesting read from AI

AI
Biblical Significance:
The word "davar" is used extensively in the Hebrew Bible, referring to the spoken word of God or a matter of importance

"Jesus is Davar" (דבר) can be interpreted as referring to Jesus as the "Word" of God, echoing the Greek term "Logos"(written word ) in John 1:1, which describes Jesus as the divine word made flesh.

adding this

In the context of Jewish thought and the Hebrew language, "davar" (דָּבָר) means "word," "speech," or "thing," reflecting the belief that words are a creative force and the foundation of reality, as God created the universe through words.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• 
  
• Creative Power of Words:
  Jewish tradition emphasizes the power of words, viewing them as a fundamental aspect of creation. God is believed to have brought the universe into existence through speaking, making words the creative energy of the world.

My understanding is that rhema and logos are both only referred to as the spoken word in the Bible and graphe refers to the written word. The Septuagint ( the oldest Greek translation of the Jewish Bible) uses rhema and logos as equivalents and both for dabar.

 

[unsafe]

AI

In theological contexts, "logos" refers to the objective, written Word of God (like the Bible), while "rhema" denotes the subjective, spoken Word of God that is revealed or applied to a specific situation or individual.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Logos:
  • Represents the constant, unchanging Word of God as found in scripture.
    
    
  • Often viewed as the foundation or principle upon which God's truth is established.
    
    
  • Examples include the entirety of the Bible or specific verses that contain general principles.
  • Rhema:
  • Refers to the spoken Word of God that is applied or revealed to a person at a specific time.
    
    
    • Can be understood as God's word of instruction, encouragement, or revelation that is relevant to a particular situation.
      
      
    • An example would be a specific prophecy, a word of wisdom given in a moment of need, or a personal application of a biblical verse.
  
  
• Creator and Sustainer:
  Through the "Word," God created the universe and continues to sustain it

I say ----God the Father SPOKE THE LIVING WORD who IS JESUS and Jesus Created ALL THINGS ---

 

[paradox3]

John 1:14-18

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:14-18 - New English Translation

Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory—the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father. John testified about him and shouted out, “This one was the one about whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is greater than I am, because he...

www.biblegateway.com

The Word made flesh! A different birth narrative altogether. But conception by the Holy Spirit doesn't seem terribly far off.

John the Baptist has predicted this miraculous event. Through Jesus Christ, God is made known. The Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth come about through Jesus.

 

[Mendalla]

A very clear and very resonant Christology there. High, to be sure, but definitely expressed quite loudly and beautifully.

17 For the law was given through Moses, but[k] grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.

Interesting in that it almost contrasts "law" with "grace and truth" even though other passages in the Synoptics suggest Jesus is more about the interpretation of the law than something new. But even here, "grace and truth" aren't explicitly replacing the law and could be read as an approach to the law given through Moses.

No one has ever seen God. The only one,[l] himself God, who is in closest fellowship with[m] the Father, has made God[n] known

In an old sermon from my UU days, I talked about the "faces" we put on God since Godself is really not directly knowable or perceivable by us. I highlighted Jesus as "incarnate God" in Christianity as an example. That presumes a mythological understanding rather than a literal one, though.

 

[paradox3]

@Mendalla
Jesus famously says in Matthew's Gospel that he has come not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.

Could it be that Grace and Truth build on the Law of Moses and provide a more mature view of God? Maybe this is the author's intention.

God's nature has become more accessible in the person of Jesus.

 

[unsafe]

So here we see that Jesus --the Word----- became Flesh ------The Word then is alive and active -----this is important to get ----the Living Word inbirths Saving Faith in a person who accepts the Father's drawing -----the Word (Jesus ) then can speak to the Person personally through the Holy Spirit --this is the Rhema coming from the Logos ----(-the meaning behind the Logus to give you the Spiritual meaning )------This is why Jesus spoke in parables -----so He would know who had understanding and who didn't ----


Jesus came Full of Grace and Truth ----so the concept of Grace just being a Spiritual substance that God bestows on His Children ---now shows that Grace here is a Person ---Jesus is Full of Grace and Truth ------Jesus is Grace -----

So what does this word Truth mean here -----

Strong's Lexicon
alétheia: Truth

truth, but not merely truth as spoken; truth of idea, reality, sincerity, truth in the moral sphere, divine truth revealed to man, straightforwardness.

Jesus Christ is depicted as the embodiment of truth, and His teachings are presented as the ultimate revelation of God's truth to humanity.
The truth which is the gospel or which the gospel presents, John 1:14,

I say -------So Jesus who is full of Grace has an inexhaustible supply of Grace to give to His sheep ----

AI
John 1:16, the phrase "grace upon grace" (Greek: charis epi charin) signifies a continuous and overflowing abundance of God's favor, not a one-time gift, but a constant and renewing presence.

I say ------This is very powerful for the True Believer as when the Believer has weak moments --Jesus full of Grace gives the believer strength to withstand -----the Believer has backup to stay strong in their Faith

Verse
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.

This is revealing that Jesus has come to displace the Law and bring in Grace which comes through Faith -------The Law required no Faith to keep it -----so Jesus came to fulfil the 613 laws which brought in Eternal Death and kept the Curse in place --and now bring back Eternal Life and the Blessings for those who receive him ----

 

[GordW]

I've always wondered what that actually means, but I guess in cultural context, esp. given the creation narrative that John 1 mirrors to some degree, the concept makes a certain sense. God was before all else, so was God's Word.

What does the notion of a pre-existent Word mean in a potentially infinite multiverse where time is really just a matter of perception, as modern physics increasingly suggests might be the case? I supposed it could be a "Word" inherent in the structure of space-time that "pre-exists" as far as Earth and humanity are concerned that was then given form in Jesus. Interesting to think about.

WEll and when you consider that in Genesis 1 God speaks things into being the idea of the Logos/Word makes even more sense

 

[Jaebius]

Could it be that Grace and Truth build on the Law of Moses and provide a more mature view of God? Maybe this is the author's intention.

Think that's true. Jesus said that he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. We who preach should always make sure that our sermons contain both Law and Gospel (we haven't perfectly lived by the Law, and we can't, but in his love, God gives us his Grace)

God's nature has become more accessible in the person of Jesus.

Yes, absolutely, I believe so