The Christian Downfall ---The Error Of Balaam

[Jaebius]

Actually not true. Cain brought his offering in faith, it was faith which led him to bring it. The problem with Cain's gift is the quality of the offering, Cain cared only to offer the dregs of the harvest and saved the best for himself.

If Cain had had more faith - would he not have brought the best gift that he could?

 

[revjohn]

If Cain had had more faith - would he not have brought the best gift that he could?

We can only speculate.

I don't think the issue with Cain is a lack of faith. There does appear to be some taking God for granted.

It would appear that Cain believed he was due a blessing just for showing up and not coming empty handed. Does God proper the people of God or not?

Cain does offer a sacrifice, at some level that indicates the presence of faith.

The material sacrificed is substandard, that doesn't articulate a lack of faith so much as it does a lack of respect.

 

[unsafe]

Hi revjohn your quote Whether you like it or not prosperity isn't a simply matter of money in your pocket. It never has been in the Kingdom of God and likely never will be.

I didn't say it was ---this is your thinking ------I said God's Word is full of His people that he Prospered both Spiritually and Materially ----and that revjohn is the TRUTH ----like it or not ------

God is the one who decides who gets His wealth ----not us -----and God hates worldly wealth revjohn and again that is the truth --everything we own belongs to God revjohn not us -----so all material things you have in your house belongs to God because God is the one who gave you the wealth to buy your stuff ----and again that is the truth -----


God owns everything, and we are His managers

• Psalms 24:1 — "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it."
• Leviticus 25:23 — "The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants."
• Haggai 2:8 — " 'The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the Lord Almighty."
• 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 — "You are not your own; you were bought at a price."
• Deuteronomy 8:18 — "Remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth."
• Romans 11:36a — "For from him and through him and to him are all things ..."
• 1 Corinthians 4:2 — "Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful."

Your Quote ----Cain brought his offering in faith, it was faith which led him to bring it ------NO revjohn Cain brought what he cultivated from the ground ----Able brought a blood sacrifice ------To come to God in worship a blood sacrifice is needed to attone for sins ---this is by Faith ---Cain brought his own idea to God even though Cain and Able had the same knowledge of how to worship ----Cain disobeyed God's protocol for worship -----which is to cover your sins by Faith through the shedding of Blood ---


Hebrews 11New Living Translation (NLT)

Great Examples of Faith

11 Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.2 Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation.
3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

4 It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts. Although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us by his example of faith.

People's Commentary on this ----

Hebrews 11:4

Hebrews 11:4 Abel offered toGod a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. See the account ofGenesis 4:1-5. Abel's faith was probably shown in offering just such a sacrifice as the Lord demanded, while Cain made an offering according to his own ideas. By which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts. In some way the Lord testified his approval of Abel's sacrifice, and showed his disapproval of Cain's, perhaps by sending fire to consume Abel's. And by it he being dead yet speaketh. By his faith. His faith speaks to all ages.

You have every right to believe what you want ----I believe God's word -----

Grace and Peace to you

 

[revsdd]

You're interpreting, unsafe. There's nothing in Scripture that tells the story of Cain and Abel that actually says that Abel's sacrifice was better because it was a blood sacrifice. To believe that is to go beyond the text - which I thought you never do? There's also nothing to suggest that Cain was without faith. Hebrews 11:4 says "by faith Abel presented a more excellent offering than Cain." That's not the same as saying that Cain was without faith. All Scripture tells us for sure is that Abel's offering was considered more acceptable by God than Cain's, and that it was faith that motivated Abel to make that offering. There's no biblical commentary at all on whether it was the "type" of sacrifice (blood vs fruit) that was the problem. It could have been the motivation of the givers. It could have been that one was more faithful than the other (who is never declared to be without faith.)

I know. Let me anticipate. "We think different is all." Actually it's not a matter of thinking different. It's a matter of you drawing conclusions about what Scripture is saying by going beyond the words of Scripture into the realm of personal speculation.

 

[unsafe]

Hi revsdd ---could it be that you are interpreting the scripture your way and not understanding the scripture ----why do you think it is me and not you who could be wrong -----

Adam and Eve sinned in the garden -----Cain and Abel were made sinners because of their parents fall ----the first Blood Sacrifice was made by God Himself in the Garden -----Abel believed in God --Cain didn't that is why Cain is included in the error of Balaam -----God said there will be 2 groups of people ------Cain was motivated by Satan ----- Abel by God ------Cain's Faith was not God's Faith ----Faith in the unseen is what Abel brought -----Human Faith in this seen world is what Cain brought ---2 different kinds of Faith -----and this still exists today ---

Genesis 3:21GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

21 The Lord God made clothes from animal skins for the man and his wife and dressed them.

In order to make the cloths he had to kill the animal so blood was shed -----

this is commentary on this -----you can read more here on this ----
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/77/eVerseID/77/RTD/Clarke

Adam Clarke ------Genesis 3:21


God made coats of skins -It is very likely that the skins out of which their clothing was made were taken off animals whose blood had been poured out as a sin-offering to God; for as we find Cain and Abel offering sacrifices to God, we may fairly presume that God had given them instructions on this head; nor is it likely that the notion of a sacrifice could have ever occurred to the mind of man without an express revelation from God.

1 John 3:12Amplified Bible (AMP)

12 [And] not be like Cain who [took his nature and got his motivation] from the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his deeds (activities, works) were wicked and malicious and his brother’s were righteous (virtuous).

You can believe what you want that is your right ---I believe God's word -----and yes we do think different and that is OK by me

Peace to you

 

[Jaebius]

In order to make the cloths he had to kill the animal so blood was shed -----

Maybe the animals had just naturally died - how would we know.

 

[unsafe]

Hi Pr.Jae

If that is your assumption than that is your assumption -----my assumption is different is all -----it makes sense to me that the first sin which was in God's plan had to be dealt with right away so His plan to continue to bring His Son into this world to shed His Precious Blood once and for all to bring people back to Heaven makes perfect sense to me and He was the one who had to start the process -----that is my assumption on this ----

Peace

 

[chansen]

By that logic, someone must benefit in some small way if I cut myself shaving.

 

[revsdd]

Hi revsdd ---could it be that you are interpreting the scripture your way and not understanding the scripture ----why do you think it is me and not you who could be wrong -----

Adam and Eve sinned in the garden -----Cain and Abel were made sinners because of their parents fall ----the first Blood Sacrifice was made by God Himself in the Garden -----Abel believed in God --Cain didn't that is why Cain is included in the error of Balaam -----God said there will be 2 groups of people ------Cain was motivated by Satan ----- Abel by God ------Cain's Faith was not God's Faith ----Faith in the unseen is what Abel brought -----Human Faith in this seen world is what Cain brought ---2 different kinds of Faith -----and this still exists today ---

Error is always possible unsafe - so, tell me, is it equally possible that you're wrong?

I await your revelation of the biblical passage which I have never, ever come across that says that Cain's sacrifice was rejected because it wasn't a blood sacrifice. So far, you haven't found it. If you show me something that clearly and explicitly says that, I'll tip my hat to you and agree that you know far more about the Bible than I do.

Thus far, all you've done is spout words that actually don't say anything about why Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable. You've offered your interpretation of the story. You haven't offered a scriptural passage that supports your interpretation. You link to commentaries about Genesis 3:21 - which has no relation at all to Genesis 4:3-5, except that they're both in Genesis. So, show me where the Bible says that Cain's offering was rejected because it wasn't a blood offering. If you can't - admit that you're simply making an interpretation of the story, which you usually criticize others for doing.

I don't want "we think different." I know that. And if you truly "believe God's word" then why are you trying to get God's word to say something that it clearly DOESN'T say.

 

[Jaebius]

By that logic, someone must benefit in some small way if I cut myself shaving.

The good folk who manufacture styptic pencils.

 

[Jaebius]

Hi Pr.Jae

If that is your assumption than that is your assumption -----my assumption is different is all -----

That isn't my assumption. On this I don't have an assumption.

 

[revjohn]

this is your thinking

To be clear it is not my thinking at all. It is the thinking which is present in the prosperity gospel movement. The prosperity gospel is an off-shoot of the Word of Faith movement. Since you seem to be unfamiliar with that particular aspect of Christian history I am sharing the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

I'm not a big fan of wikipedia, this entry touches on most of the relevant history of the Prosperity Gospel. Read it. Ignore it. Do what you will with it.

I said God's Word is full of His people that he Prospered both Spiritually and Materially ----and that revjohn is the TRUTH ----like it or not

Not so full that there is no room for teachings which conflict with prosperity thinking.

Luke 14: 33 "So therefore, none of you can be my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.

1 Timothy 6: 9-10 "But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains."

Mark 10: 23-25 "Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, 'How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, 'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 6: 19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal.

There is no doubt that God has blessed the people of God. There is no doubt that scripture confirms God blesses and prospers the people of God.

There should be no doubt that the message of Christ's gospel, the good news of Jesus is more than money in the bank and a clean bill of health. The prosperity gospel denies this understanding.

No revjohn Cain brought what he cultivated from the ground

The earth is the Lord's right? Everything Cain brought forth was given to him by God right? That was the point you were making by quoting Psalm 24: 1 and Romans 11: 36. It is the act of bringing which is the act of faith. So Cain's action is rooted in faith.

To come to God in worship a blood sacrifice is needed to atone for sins

Inconveniently for both Cain and Able that particular commandment was not in play at the time and does not come into play for quite some time afterwards. It also conveniently ignores the fact that at this point in the text there has been no instruction by God to bring sacrifices or gifts to God whatsoever. We could pretend that Cain and Abel would know precisely what it was that God wanted but that is about all we can do at this point in the text.

What does the text actually tell us?

Genesis 4: 3 In the course of time Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground

Interesting, don't you think that Cain comes first with an offering? We know that he is a tiller of the ground and that God, in chapter 3 of Genesis had said that we should eat the plants of the field (no mention of animals being eaten) and bread (made from grains which are plants not animals). Where does God tell us that the fruit of the ground is unfit to be a sacrifice?

Genesis 4: 4 and Abel for his part brought of the firstlings of his flock, their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering

Fat is mentioned. Blood is not. This is not a blood sacrifice even though blood must have been spilled to acquire it.

The key, I believe comes from two words in the text. They are firstlings (or firstborn) and fat (or the best portion).

You can choose to believe that this is about blood sacrifice, that is not what the text teaches. You can choose to believe that Cain did not act in faith, that is not what the text teaches either.

I believe the text is teaching us about whether we offer God the best or the leftovers. It is about our willingness to give God the choicest bits of our labours and not the scraps we can manage without.

Cain disobeyed God's protocol for worship -----which is to cover your sins by Faith through the shedding of Blood

No. Cain did not. That particular protocol would not exist for hundreds of years after this particular sacrifice. Please show where between Genesis 1: 1 and Genesis 4: 5 God teaches anyone what a proper sacrifice would be. Please explain why, if grains and fruits are unacceptable sacrifices God calls for them in Leviticus 2 and Exodus 29: 40?

What makes Cain's offering less acceptable is what he chose to give not why he chose to give.

 

[unsafe]

Hi revsdd your quote So far, you haven't found it. If you show me something that clearly and explicitly says that, I'll tip my hat to you and agree that you know far more about the Bible than I do.

revsdd--I certanily don't need any tipping of any hat from you or anyone else -----you have every right to believe what you want and so do I ----I stated what I believe and that is that ------I am not going round the mountain with you on this ---your belief is just that it does not affect me or my beliefs -----I hold to what I believe ----

The first part of this sermon says it for me -----

Peace to you

 

[revsdd]

Your attempt at deflecting isn't very convincing. This is your pattern, of course. When you have no answer to someone's challenge you simply give up. Why can't you just admit that you're saying something that the Bible doesn't say. And, since you challenged me to admit that I could be in error - which of course I could be - I find it fascinating that you didn't at least respond to my invitation to admit that you, too, might be in error. Why can't you just admit that? And if you can't admit the possibility that you might be in error, that's a sign of a significant spiritual issue that you seriously need to deal with.

 

[unsafe]

Hi revjohn

We do agree on some things in your post revjohn but for the most part we think different ------we can go on and on and get no where ----

I do agree that God owns everything revjohn but there is protocol to worship God and he set that Himself in the Garden ---that is my belief -----you can believe what you want to -----and so can I ------

Grace and Peace to you

 

[unsafe]

Hi revsdd

I don't admit that my belief is wrong because that is my belief -----you believe I am wrong and that is your belief -----who is right and who is wrong is not the issue in my book ----- We all have different views and beliefs ------I hold true to my beliefs -----as do you is all ---Plus we think different ----- what you think of me matters not to me -----

Your quote --- And if you can't admit the possibility that you might be in error, that's a sign of a significant spiritual issue that you seriously need to deal with

I must have hit a nerve with you revsdd ----but if it makes you feel like a great person to say those things to someone just because they didn't bow down to your request -----then I ask who has the greater Spiritual Issue -----

I leave you with these great scripture we can all learn from and put into action when posting on this sight ------



2 Timothy 2:14GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

14 Remind believers about these things, and warn them in the sight of God not to quarrel over words. Quarreling doesn’t do any good but only destroys those who are listening.


2 Timothy 2:23-24Good News Translation (GNT)

23 But keep away from foolish and ignorant arguments; you know that they end up in quarrels.24 As the Lord's servant, you must not quarrel. You must be kind toward all, a good and patient teacher,

Peace

 

[chansen]

When backed into a corner, claim victory. Brilliant.

 

[revjohn]

there is protocol to worship God and he set that Himself in the Garden ---that is my belief

Then your belief is not a biblical belief.

Which is fine, as you point out, we think different. Believe what you want to. I believe God's word.

 

[RitaTG]

When backed into a corner, claim victory. Brilliant.

Is that similar to "I hit him several times in the fist with my face and that is how I bloodied him all up." ????
revsdd ... welcome! .... you will get used to discussions like this ....unfortunately .... LOL
The Error of Balaam ..... isn't that sort of like trying to tell God what to do and then going to speak on behalf of God when you have not been authorized to say the thing you have in mind? It seems like in a way that Balaam was an early forerunner of a prosperity gospel that put down others for the benefit of the "chosen" few....
Comments please pastors???
Regards
Rita

 

[revjohn]

It seems like in a way that Balaam was an early forerunner of a prosperity gospel that put down others for the benefit of the "chosen" few....Comments please pastors???

Hmmmmmmm. The only real connection between Balaam and the prosperity gospel would be the greed which drives the accumulation of wealth.

It is doubtful that Balaam was interested in cursing the Israelites for Balak pro bono.

Balaam agreed to curse the Isrealites because Balak was prepared to pay him to do so.