Would you also avoid worship songs that use Jesus' name?
Talking to God Through Jesus
- Thread starter Waterfall
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chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I think it's important to note that anyone who insists on how you should pray or who you should pray to, and indicates that a failure on your part to follow what they will insist is plainly spelled out in scripture, and will result in a negative consequence for you, is a fear-mongering asshat. They can't demonstrate anything. I think they're in it to make themselves feel better about their decisions and more people joining them gives them more influence and, in their minds, validates their wonky logic.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
There are passages in the Bible that suggest God will be very harsh toward "unbelievers." Eternal torment and annihilationism are both arguable from Scripture. There are also passages in the Bible that hint at universal salvation. There are passages in the Bible that suggest that whatever measure we use to "judge" people is not going to be the measure God uses and that we may be surprised at who is "saved" in the end. Since we are called to be humble I will acknowledge the third position and concede that I can't be certain who will and won't be "saved," nor can I be absolutely certain of the specific measure that God will use. I do believe (given that Jesus tells us that there will be some surprises) that it can't be just as easy as the "My understanding is correct and everybody who doesn't agree with my understanding is going straight to hell" viewpoint makes it out to be. Ultimately, salvation and who receives it is a sovereign choice of God. I simply proclaim that in Jesus there is assurance.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Waterfall ---your quote -----Do you then believe that those who may never have had the opportunity to have heard about Jesus but have prayed to God sincerely, are not being heard by God?
God is God of course and can do as he wishes ---but according to His word Waterfall He is not a respecter of persons ---He is a Respecter of His word --- scripture clearly states that there is no excuse -----so what I believe matters not and I can't answer a question that only God can answer for you ---all I can do is believe God's word and do what it says -----You will have to ask God for the answer to your question ----what I can do is quote God's word that says there is no excuse ----you see the people you speak of my worship a god of some kind ---
Here we see even the people of the rain forest worship something -----missionaries are even in the rainforests
Read all here -----http://www.christiananswers.net/kids/rainforest/farawayfriends.html
Most Indians living in the rain forest are “primal-indigenous”, or “animist”. We are moral people who believe in right and wrong. We worship many spirits that we believe are all around us, in the trees, animals, and everywhere. It can be a very frightening thing to live in fear of the spirits. We are often afraid to do things that might upset the spirits and cause harm on us. We have legends that tell of the Creator/Owner God and His book from long ago whom our forefathers once knew Him. But we believe that He left us long ago and is no longer interested in us.
It is because of our beliefs about the world around us that the missionaries come to live with us—so we can learn how to follow the one true God and trust in Jesus.
This is what God's word says ----
Romans 1:18-23GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
God’s Anger against Sinful Humanity
18 God’s anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living. 19 What can be known about God is clear to them because he has made it clear to them. 20 From the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse. 21 They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools. 23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for statues that looked like mortal humans, birds, animals, and snakes.
God is God of course and can do as he wishes ---but according to His word Waterfall He is not a respecter of persons ---He is a Respecter of His word --- scripture clearly states that there is no excuse -----so what I believe matters not and I can't answer a question that only God can answer for you ---all I can do is believe God's word and do what it says -----You will have to ask God for the answer to your question ----what I can do is quote God's word that says there is no excuse ----you see the people you speak of my worship a god of some kind ---
Here we see even the people of the rain forest worship something -----missionaries are even in the rainforests
Read all here -----http://www.christiananswers.net/kids/rainforest/farawayfriends.html
Most Indians living in the rain forest are “primal-indigenous”, or “animist”. We are moral people who believe in right and wrong. We worship many spirits that we believe are all around us, in the trees, animals, and everywhere. It can be a very frightening thing to live in fear of the spirits. We are often afraid to do things that might upset the spirits and cause harm on us. We have legends that tell of the Creator/Owner God and His book from long ago whom our forefathers once knew Him. But we believe that He left us long ago and is no longer interested in us.
It is because of our beliefs about the world around us that the missionaries come to live with us—so we can learn how to follow the one true God and trust in Jesus.
This is what God's word says ----
Romans 1:18-23GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
God’s Anger against Sinful Humanity
18 God’s anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living. 19 What can be known about God is clear to them because he has made it clear to them. 20 From the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse. 21 They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools. 23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for statues that looked like mortal humans, birds, animals, and snakes.
I too pray to God, pure and simple.
As Mendalla pointed out, The "prayer that Jesus taught us", the Lord's Prayer, invites us to direct our prayers to God "our Father". I don't remember of any place in the Gospel where Jesus say that we should not pray to him, but he said in various ways that he was sent by the Father to do his will, etc. It is somewhere in the Pauline texts (but don't ask me which epistle) that Paul elaborates on the concept of praying to God (the Father), using Jesus – or recognizing Jesus – as a mediator, as the one who came especially to save us. Then, throughout the history of the Church, I suspect that praying "through the Son" was a way to highlight the fact that while many religions have faith in on supreme being, Christianity is the only one which highlights the role of someone who was sent on earth to be Saviour of humanity.
So then why I pray to God? Two main reasons:
– What is Trinity? Is there a Father, a Mother, a Parent, a Creator... or all of the above?
– Are there very specific roles in the Trinity? Aren't Father, Son and Holy Spirit all God? Or to put it differently, isn't the Trinity "simply" a way to highlight the many facets of God?
Overall, I like to keep everything simple and the Trinity with their family problems.
As Mendalla pointed out, The "prayer that Jesus taught us", the Lord's Prayer, invites us to direct our prayers to God "our Father". I don't remember of any place in the Gospel where Jesus say that we should not pray to him, but he said in various ways that he was sent by the Father to do his will, etc. It is somewhere in the Pauline texts (but don't ask me which epistle) that Paul elaborates on the concept of praying to God (the Father), using Jesus – or recognizing Jesus – as a mediator, as the one who came especially to save us. Then, throughout the history of the Church, I suspect that praying "through the Son" was a way to highlight the fact that while many religions have faith in on supreme being, Christianity is the only one which highlights the role of someone who was sent on earth to be Saviour of humanity.
So then why I pray to God? Two main reasons:
– What is Trinity? Is there a Father, a Mother, a Parent, a Creator... or all of the above?
– Are there very specific roles in the Trinity? Aren't Father, Son and Holy Spirit all God? Or to put it differently, isn't the Trinity "simply" a way to highlight the many facets of God?
Overall, I like to keep everything simple and the Trinity with their family problems.
It doesn't have to be scripture, God has given us discernment, reasoning and logic to use. Science seeks out scripture, they just don't call it that.
Northwind
Stationary nomad.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
I have a huge problem with people who presume to know who will be saved. I also consider it highly arrogant to declare oneself as chosen/blessed/saved/etc. That is God's decision.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
---I so agree with the latter part of your comment here --
revsdd
Well-Known Member
Well, I do believe that in Jesus there is assurance, and I do believe that I am in Jesus, therefore in all honesty I do believe that I am "saved." However, I don't make a habit of running through the streets crying out "I'm saved ! I'm saved!" for all to hear. I will say that - again - in Jesus there is assurance and peace, and I will offer that word to others who are seeking assurance and peace.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
This is not a big deal for me. As I said, I don't pray to Jesus or consciously pray in Jesus' name.
I have no objection to it being used in public prayers - it's up to the person leading the prayer. So if the minister, or chair of the Board, or president of the bowling league opens a service, or a meeting, or leads a prayer before the Christmas banquet and prays in Jesus' name, I also pray in Jesus' name.
The same way with hymns. Some of my favourite hymns invoke Jesus' name. I sing them lustily.
When choosing hymns when I am leading worship, I pay close attention to their theology and generally would probably not chose ones directed to Jesus. Last Sunday one of the hymns I used was "I Heard the Voicce of Jesus Say"; another was "What a Friend We Have in Jesus".
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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With salvation should come humility, should it not? A recognition that salvation is God's gift, not something we "deserve" or have earned? That even needing salvation is a sign of our brokenness?
I ask because "I'm saved and you're not" seems quite prideful and out of tune with the notion that we are all wretched sinners in need of God's Grace.
I ask because "I'm saved and you're not" seems quite prideful and out of tune with the notion that we are all wretched sinners in need of God's Grace.
God nudging you?
chansen
Had a point all along
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- He/Him/His
Science seeks to make sense of things - to discover natural laws that we can use to our advantage. Then sure, it writes journal papers and eventually textbooks to explain these findings and how to repeat them.
Religion starts with scripture, then spends centuries attempting to justify why anyone should believe it.
If you want to go all science-vs-religion on me again, I'm still throwing down with the side that demonstrates something *before* writing a book about it.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Not to mention that if new observations contradict existing theories, the theories have to be changed or replaced and new papers and books written.
At least that is how it should work. Scientists can, unfortunately, be just as doctrinal as religious people at times. Look at how long certain scientists clung to steady state in the face of evidence for the Big Bang. Though now the shoe may have shifted feet, since some of the new theories about the beginning of the "Big Bang" period of cosmic inflation are sounding more and more like a form of steady state.
Christianity (I'm not saying "religion" for reasons I will get to momentarily) has to either deny observations or re-interpret. It doesn't get to write or rewrite its scripture. Which is fine if the focus is on spiritual matters, but doesn't work so well for social matters, technology, or understanding the natural world, all of which change over time. Fortunately, many, if not most, Christians recognize that as well and we see it in the modern liberal and progressive traditions that eschew literalism.
I would suggest that "religion" is too broad here. "Western Religion" is as far as I would go. Eastern traditions tend to be much less doctrinal and much more accepting of changing social circumstances and human knowledge. Buddhism, for instance, contains nothing that prevents its adherents from accepting modern science or bringing their teachings into the modern, technological society. It still all goes back to core doctrines like the Four Noble Truths, but there is nothing in those truths that ties the tradition down to the understandings of a particular time and place. You can believe that attachment causes suffering whether you're a 1st century AD Indian or a 21st century American. It is a psychological statement about the human condition, not about whether there is a God or how the world was created or whatever. Confucious and Lao Tzu are similar. Even Hinduism is more flexible, though it does contain more metaphysics than the others.
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revsdd
Well-Known Member
Actually, Christian Scripture arose from a "religious community" that had already developed around the memory of Jesus. The faith existed before the Scriptures that spoke about it. (One could argue that the Jewish Scriptures pre-dated Christianity, but the response would be that Judaism pre-dated the Jewish Scriptures.) Even for Islam - while you might be able to argue that Muhammad's writings (the Quran) were the basis around which the community formed rather than being a product of an existing community - the Quran is clearly based on both Christian and Jewish Scriptures. Again, "Scripture" pre-dated the religion.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
I disagree.
Two people are lost at sea, one finds a life preserver and says look! Salvation, grab hold! The other says, no thank you, then swims off murmuring how prideful the guy resting on his life preserver is.
Pride goeth before the drowning.
Not really.