Survey of UCC ministers

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BetteTheRed said:
Does anyone besides me find "belief" a rather involuntary process? (In a "one of these things is not like the other" way?)
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For me, it's completely involuntary. I can't choose to believe in things I find lacking in credibility. So far, there is nothing I find in Christianity that I find persuasive, so I don't believe. I can't "choose" to shut off my brain and believe. To say I do would always be a lie.
 
Chasen... anyone in The United Church of Canada has the right to bring to Presbytery concerns about my ministry - not just members of the congregation with whom I serve. Presbytery then has the responsibility to make decisions about how it wishes to deal with those concerns, within the structure of the polity.

This is not the first time that someone outside a congregation has brought concerns about a member of the order of ministry to the body that is responsible for oversight and discipline of ministry personnel - which is not the congregation. (For which I give thanks.)
 
Pr. Jae said:
Yes all - who remain - seem receptive.
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And had they done something 10 years ago, that could have been understandable. To wait all this time until Rev. Vosper has a like-minded and growing congregation, only to try to take the rug out from under her, looks terrible. It looks like they decided to do nothing with the expectation she would fail, and now that she's not failing, they are forced to act. It's bulls**t. If you give her the rope to hang herself, and she doesn't, you don't go back on that. You lost. Now you should have to see where this goes.
 
RichardBott said:
Chasen... anyone in The United Church of Canada has the right to bring to Presbytery concerns about my ministry - not just members of the congregation with whom I serve. Presbytery then has the responsibility to make decisions about how it wishes to deal with those concerns, within the structure of the polity.

This is not the first time that someone outside a congregation has brought concerns about a member of the order of ministry to the body that is responsible for oversight and discipline of ministry personnel - which is not the congregation. (For which I give thanks.)
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The 10 people from Metropolitan United Church who signed the letter are quintessential busybodies. They are not concerned about the welfare of the people of West Hill United. They are concerned about themselves.

If you were a manipulative minister who managed to strongarm a congregation into compliance, then I agree, another congregation would be brave to step in and break up a budding cult. This isn't like that.
 
chansen said:
The 10 people from Metropolitan United Church who signed the letter are quintessential busybodies. They are not concerned about the welfare of the people of West Hill United. They are concerned about themselves.

If you were a manipulative minister who managed to strongarm a congregation into compliance, then I agree, another congregation would be brave to step in and break up a budding cult. This isn't like that.
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You are making an assumption here. To me it doesn't look like concern for themselves; it looks like concern for the UCC.
 
@chansen have you ever been to a Sunday service at Gretta's congregation or any other UCCan in the GTA? Maybe to check out a few, experientially, before saying what happens there? I mean, with an open mind, not to sneer if Jesus' name gets mentioned. I think if you want to have an informed opinion about the UCCan, you should see for yourself what it's actually like. I think, by and large, what Gretta preaches is probably very similar to what most congregations preach, but without making any explicit reference to Jesus, and the bible, not even metaphorically. And that is where I feel, and think, a Christian church should mention its founder once in awhile - spiritually, it makes for a richer, deeper understanding of what unites humanity, in my opinion. It's sort of the same problem I had with the UU. They have no issue mentioning Buddha, and mentioning other religions' prophets, myths and personified symbols, but seemed to want to avoid mentioning Christ, which I don't agree with. It's important to me, to draw metaphors, to think about things from different angles but find common experience in the process, or else it feels to "nuts n' bolts" and not deep enough. Anyway, don't know how else to explain it. That doesn't mean I think Gretta should lose her job. I don't. You never know...maybe her faith will change again...less likely if she gets kicked out. She'll just resent the UCCan, that she's spent her whole life in.


But you should check out a few different services, maybe even a UU one too, and then give an opinion. See if your perspective changes at all.
 
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Kimmio said:
@chansen have you ever been to a Sunday service at Gretta's congregation or any other UCCan in the GTA? Maybe to check out a few, experientially, before saying what happens there? I mean, with an open mind, not to sneer if Jesus' name gets mentioned. I think if you want to have an informed opinion about the UCCan, you should see for yourself what it's actually like. I think, by and large, what Gretta preaches is probably very similar to what most congregations preach, but without making any explicit reference to Jesus, and the bible, not even metaphorically. And that is where I feel, and think, a Christian church should mention its founder once in awhile - spiritually, it makes for a richer, deeper understanding of what unites humanity, in my opinion. It's sort of the same problem I had with the UU. They have no issue mentioning Buddha, and mentioning other religions' prophets, myths and personified symbols, but seemed to want to avoid mentioning Christ, which I don't agree with. It's important to me, to draw metaphors, to think about things from different angles but find common experience in the process, or else it feels to "nuts n' bolts" and not deep enough. Anyway, don't know how else to explain it. But you should check out a few different services, maybe even a UU one too, and then give an opinion. See if your perspective changes at all.
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Are you under the impression I'm against Gretta?
 
Kimmio said:
@chansen have you ever been to a Sunday service at Gretta's congregation or any other UCCan in the GTA? Maybe to check out a few, experientially, before saying what happens there? I mean, with an open mind, not to sneer if Jesus' name gets mentioned. I think if you want to have an informed opinion about the UCCan, you should see for yourself what it's actually like. I think, by and large, what Gretta preaches is probably very similar to what most congregations preach, but without making any explicit reference to Jesus, and the bible, not even metaphorically. And that is where I feel, and think, a Christian church should mention its founder once in awhile - spiritually, it makes for a richer, deeper understanding of what unites humanity, in my opinion. It's sort of the same problem I had with the UU. They have no issue mentioning Buddha, and mentioning other religions' prophets, myths and personified symbols, but seemed to want to avoid mentioning Christ, which I don't agree with. It's important to me, to draw metaphors, to think about things from different angles but find common experience in the process, or else it feels to "nuts n' bolts" and not deep enough. Anyway, don't know how else to explain it. But you should check out a few different services, maybe even a UU one too, and then give an opinion. See if your perspective changes at all.
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Good idea Cousin. Also @chansen, I feel visiting a Fellowship Baptist service would enrich you. Let me know when you'd like to come. I'll treat you to lunch afterwards.
 
Over and over it comes down to the same thing- the UCC is a group which has set rules that either the majority of members or the majority of people in leading positions agree to. Gretta has made the mistake of critizising the boss and sitting at the edge of acceptable belief definitions- and worst of all, she would not shut up. That's enough to be disliked in any group. ( Seeing the UCC as a whole). It doesn't matter that she has a fan club and is doing good work. It isn't going to convince the rest of the group to rethink their "God" definition- because their's is still 80% compatible. We are not talking about christian values here or "what would Jesus do". We are following a group process. If she was an employee of a company and voiced a critque like she did about the moderator about the CEO and the company values, she likely would not have had a job the next day.
Difference here is that its not the Moderator who hires and fires, but a whole lot of people think they define the company values.
 
The leaders in a cult that worships television should be people who actually believe that television broadcasts exist and who regularly and actively watch television. They shouldn't be people who don't believe in the existence of broadcasting. They shouldn't be people who fiddle around with the remote. They should be avid viewers.
 
The only way to make Christians ponder something is to create a disturbance ... otherwise Christians are too comfortable with what they believe but don't know ... considering what mortals really know about eternal things that cover the gamut from everything to nothing ... and how to make something out of it ...

Just write some incomprehensible poetics about God ... and they go off in flying ax handles ... about what they don't know but believe perfectly ... it is best to claim you are crazy and know nothing! Then they will tell you something fore sure ... about goings on in the large beaches of Arabia ... festivities of grits? That feast of grinding ... corn pone?
 
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