Sin and Grace

[chansen]

An "honest inquiry" is what I, and many pilgrims, are endeavouring to do on our faith journey.

Trouble is, we are often challenged by those who got off the train at a station called Certainty.

As the scenery rolls by, I look out the window and see sin. If Jesus said that there are two commandments -to love God and love our neighbour - then failure to do one or both are what I would term "sin". I recognize that "sin" in myself by feeling disconnected from God and my fellow humans. There is no need of punishment from "a sadistic jerk" -as the feeling of separation is punishment enough.

That said, the faith journey continues, and the scenery may well change (as it has in the past) before journey's end.

"Sin" is a religious construct. If you hurt people, you hurt people, and you should feel bad. "Sin" is a manufactured guilt trip that gives religion power over you by making you feel bad and looking to a scapegoat for forgiveness. Christians are just outsourcing their forgiveness, and Christianity loves it.

 

[crazyheart]

The original post was from unsafe.

 

[crazyheart]

@chansen,, are you saying that there is no such thing as "sin".?

 

[unsafe]

chansen ----your quote -----If your God exists and has actually created a place of torture,

All people need to get this -----

God created Hell only for Satan and his demons ----Hell was never created by God for His Human creation ----God created man to fellowship with Him in the perfect world He created for man and his partner woman-----

Here come the painful Truth ----Both woman and man screwed up ---NOT GOD ----It is Not God who is putting His human creation in the fire and brimstone place that was originally for Satan and his tribe of demons who disobeyed God ----It is WOMAN AND MAN THEMSELVES who are putting THEMSELVES in the fire and brimstone place -----

We Humans need to Stop putting the blame on God for sending us to this terrible place and start taking responsibility for our own actions ----and own up to the fact that because of our choice we alone have put ourselves in that terrible place ----

God has given us a choice chansen ----your choice is your choice not God's ----and believe me --you have made your choice ---

Putting the blame on God makes us Big Fat Cowards to own up to our bad choices we have made and we are the ones who are the jerks and jackasses ----Not God ----we humans hate to think or admit that we could be so Stupid to put ourselves into a place of fire and brimstone so we have to play the Big Game of Pass the Buck to God -----

The Blame Game ----Cowards at heart -----

 

[chansen]

I'm not putting the blame on God. I'm putting the blame on you. You're perpetuating a stupid belief that tries to instill fear in people. I think we need to recognize it's stupid and stop the fearmongering.

 

[chansen]

@chansen,, are you saying that there is no such thing as "sin".?

"Sin" is a religious invention, like "Hell" or "Pat Robertson". All three are ridiculous. If you feel bad about something, that's guilt. If you see wrongs in this world, they're wrongs. Just calling things "sin" doesn't make it so. No more than calling you "Fred" makes you "Fred". People are just conditioned to look for "sin" like it's a thing.

I'm not saying there is no bad in the world. I'm saying that labeling it a "sin" misplaces the fault, and if the "sin" is cured, artificially gives credit to God and makes religious people deliriously happy for no demonstrable reason.

 

[Jaebius]

chansen ----your quote -----If your God exists and has actually created a place of torture,

All people need to get this -----

God created Hell only for Satan and his demons ----Hell was never created by God for His Human creation ----God created man to fellowship with Him in the perfect world He created for man and his partner woman-----

Here come the painful Truth ----Both woman and man screwed up ---NOT GOD ----It is Not God who is putting His human creation in the fire and brimstone place that was originally for Satan and his tribe of demons who disobeyed God ----It is WOMAN AND MAN THEMSELVES who are putting THEMSELVES in the fire and brimstone place -----

We Humans need to Stop putting the blame on God for sending us to this terrible place and start taking responsibility for our own actions ----and own up to the fact that because of our choice we alone have put ourselves in that terrible place ----

God has given us a choice chansen ----your choice is your choice not God's ----and believe me --you have made your choice ---

Putting the blame on God makes us Big Fat Cowards to own up to our bad choices we have made and we are the ones who are the jerks and jackasses ----Not God ----we humans hate to think or admit that we could be so Stupid to put ourselves into a place of fire and brimstone so we have to play the Big Game of Pass the Buck to God -----

The Blame Game ----Cowards at heart -----

Well spoken unsafe. I agree with you that we each have a choice to accept God's free gift of salvation or not.

 

[Carolla]

In a few hours I take a beloved and ancient friend who has been seizing constantly since I left for an interview. She has rebounded since my return but in the 48 hours I was gone she had 9 grand mal seizures and innumerable petit mal seizures. With no veterinarian in St. Anthony I have to make a 5.5 hour one way trip to have her humanely euthanized. That will be followed by a 5.5 hour incredibly lonely drive home.

So sorry revjohn to hear of your loyal furry friend's status. Must have been a difficult journey to the vet & home again. I remember doing that too, but only a short drive. Know that you are in my thoughts this evening.

 

[Mystic]

"Sin" is a religious construct. If you hurt people, you hurt people, and you should feel bad. "Sin" is a manufactured guilt trip that gives religion power over you by making you feel bad and looking to a scapegoat for forgiveness. Christians are just outsourcing their forgiveness, and Christianity loves it.

On the contrary, for an atheist any concept of good and evil is merely a social construct to help society function and is based on the evolution of a herd instinct without any grounding in a moral absolute. Thus, if a sadist asks you, "Why shouldn't I harm others if it brings me pleasure and if I can get away with it?" you have no basis for refuting them. You atheists act like there is some Platonic realm of forms in which Right and Wrong exist. The hard truth is that you have no grounds for considering yourself a good an decent father and husband, apart from arbitrary social and family approval and conventions.

When this issue has been raised in past threads, you have frozen like Bambi in the headlights. But now that you've lamely tried to dismiss the concept of sin as a "religious construct," it's time for you to feel the chill pf your irrational position again! The very concept of right and wrong depends on some notion of ultimate accountability. The concept of God provides such accountability; atheism does not.

 

[Seeler]

So sorry revjohn to hear of your loyal furry friend's status. Must have been a difficult journey to the vet & home again. I remember doing that too, but only a short drive. Know that you are in my thoughts this evening.

Oh that last drive with Pepper - as well as with several cats. The difficult decision in each case - is it really the right time? Could we manage one more summer? That terrible weekend when she had the problem (stroke? tumor?), the physical weakness, the mental confusion, the love and trust. And the tears. The vet offering faint hope - perhaps if we left her for a few days, she could observe her and see if there was any improvement. And me saying 'no'. She has suffered enough. I am ready to let her go.
John, Carolla, all those who have lost a pet, my thoughts are with you.

 

[chansen]

On the contrary, for an atheist any concept of good and evil is merely a social construct to help society function and is based on the evolution of a herd instinct without any grounding in a moral absolute. Thus, if a sadist asks you, "Why shouldn't I harm others if it brings me pleasure and if I can get away with it?" you have no basis for refuting them. You atheists act like there is some Platonic realm of forms in which Right and Wrong exist. The hard truth is that you have no grounds for considering yourself a good an decent father and husband, apart from arbitrary social and family approval and conventions.

When this issue has been raised in past threads, you have frozen like Bambi in the headlights. But now that you've lamely tried to dismiss the concept of sin as a "religious construct," it's time for you to feel the chill pf your irrational position again! The very concept of right and wrong depends on some notion of ultimate accountability. The concept of God provides such accountability; atheism does not.

We are accountable to each other and the written and unwritten rules and laws of society. We decide collectively what does and does not fly. Some may not like it, but that doesn't give them permission to do what makes them feel good. Cooperation is what got this species to this point. The need for answers has given us science and inquiry for slowly determining truths about our world. It has also given us religion for providing us quick answers with no regard for peer review.

Again, you have nothing but an assertion. Without Christianity, "sin" is nothing, and it isn't needed. Sin, and the threat of being seen as sinful, is useful to religion. It guilts or threatens people into acting as their religion or faith leader wants them to. And that's what sin appeals to - fear and guilt. I think that's pathetic. If your God exists, your God is pathetic. As I'm pretty sure it's just you spouting off lines, that makes you pathetic.

 

[chansen]

In a few hours I take a beloved and ancient friend who has been seizing constantly since I left for an interview. She has rebounded since my return but in the 48 hours I was gone she had 9 grand mal seizures and innumerable petit mal seizures. With no veterinarian in St. Anthony I have to make a 5.5 hour one way trip to have her humanely euthanized. That will be followed by a 5.5 hour incredibly lonely drive home. I could just write her off as broken creation and drown her in a pond as would have been her fate 15 years ago had we not taken her runty, little self in.

I missed this earlier. I'm profoundly sorry, John. People will tell you that 15 years is pretty good, but it also makes for a strong attachment that hurts more when it's over.

 

[Mystic]

chansen: "We are accountable to each other and the written and unwritten rules and laws of society."

You miss the point; you have no answer to the question of what makes right actions right. That insight is Philosophy 101.

chansen: "We decide collectively what does and does not fly. Some may not like it, but that doesn't give them permission to do what makes them feel good."

You ignore the obvious fact that atheism has no grounds for making permission necessary. The threat of punishment for anti-social behavior is a pragmatic concern, not a moral one. You continually duck the fatal flaw in your case--that you have nothing meaningful to say against those who can get away with gross cruelty. Why should they care about social consensus, when that arbitrary consensus clashes with their sadistic appetites and when they have the possibility of getting away with ignoring that consensus? You might ask, "What kind of society would we have if everyone had this attitude?" The sadist can rightly dismiss that quibble by countering, "Not everyone will follow my lead; so why should I care about your abstract hypotheticals?"

chansen: "Again, you have nothing but an assertion."

No, it is you who are reduced to mere irrational pontification. I have the concept of a loving and just God who will hold me accountable. If there is no such God or other ultimate means accountability like karma, then at least my morality is made meaningful by virtue of its alleged accountability. It is you whose claims to morality are meaningless--merely appeals to arbitrary social convention based on evolved survival-based genetics. The difference is this: you deny the existence of God, but can point to nothing to ground ethics and morality in any ultimate system of accountability. Accountability is meaningless without guaranteed consequences. Nature is based on survival of the fittest, not on survival of the kindest.

 

[crazyheart]

I'm sorry, John. I missed your post as well.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

. You atheists act like there is some Platonic realm of forms in which Right and Wrong exist. The hard truth is that you have no grounds for considering yourself a good an decent father and husband, apart from arbitrary social and family approval and conventions.

When this issue has been raised in past threads, you have frozen like Bambi in the headlights. But now that you've lamely tried to dismiss the concept of sin as a "religious construct," it's time for you to feel the chill pf your irrational position again! The very concept of right and wrong depends on some notion of ultimate accountability. The concept of God provides such accountability; atheism does not.

Mystic, chansen does believe in accountability - he objects to it being "outsourced" to God. He said that if you hurt someone, you should feel guilty.
Many who call ourselves Christians (but by no means all) think the idea of Jesus dying for our sins is a misinterpretation. We see Jesus's death as a political action by the Roman Empire.

Folks, please try and see beyond the binary.....

I happen to think that chansen may not believe in God, but that God believes in chansen.

I happen to think chansen is a "good and decent father and husband". If you had met him in the children's hospital in Toronto with his son Carter, as I did, I suspect you may change your opinion. I saw unconditional love and connection, I didn't see "arbitrary social and family approval and conventions."
(Oh, and he bought me lunch - sharing a meal is a very Christian activity from anyone - including an atheist!)

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

[QUOTE=" chansen
Again, you have nothing but an assertion. Without Christianity, "sin" is nothing, and it isn't needed. Sin, and the threat of being seen as sinful, is useful to religion. It guilts or threatens people into acting as their religion or faith leader wants them to. And that's what sin appeals to - fear and guilt. I think that's pathetic. If your God exists, your God is pathetic. As I'm pretty sure it's just you spouting off lines, that makes you pathetic.[/QUOTE]

As a Christian, I agree that the God you describe here, chansen, would be pathetic.

And, whilst it's true that many who call themselves Christians believe in a God of fear and guilt -as described by you -many of us (including Paul Tillich) do not.

I miss Innawhimsey and his use of "sumbutnotall".........

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Sin is much more than simple separation. Such a concept reduces the enormity of the problem to something that can be resolved by "thinking" or "feeling" differently. It is the theological equivalent of telling somebody with clinical depression to lighten up.

As someone who has a depressive illness, there is nothing "simple" about separation. At it's worst, a depressive episode can include, as it did for me, the frightening experience of not feeling connected to my own body.(severe depersonalisation, I was later told, was the medical terminology.)
I admit that my experience of depression, with it's resulting experiences of separation/connection, have given me a way to understand both sin and grace.
Also, a religious experience, included for me, as it has many, a feeing of connection with everything and everyone -including God. It does seem a good description of grace......

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

In a few hours I take a beloved and ancient friend who has been seizing constantly since I left for an interview. She has rebounded since my return but in the 48 hours I was gone she had 9 grand mal seizures and innumerable petit mal seizures. With no veterinarian in St. Anthony I have to make a 5.5 hour one way trip to have her humanely euthanized. That will be followed by a 5.5 hour incredibly lonely drive home. I could just write her off as broken creation and drown her in a pond as would have been her fate 15 years ago had we not taken her runty, little self in.

My apologies - I, too, didn't get this far in my reading. (Still can't do multiple quotes -and, even if I could, my old brain can't cope with too many ideas at once from others).
I'm sorry for your loss, it's obvious how much your "beloved and ancient friend" meant to you.

 

[Mystic]

Pilgrim: "Mystic, chansen does believe in accountability - he objects to it being "outsourced" to God. He said that if you hurt someone, you should feel guilty."

You miss the point: chansen has no grounds for his alleged unenforcable accountability. His concept of accountability is therefore illusory, arbitrary, and philosophically meaningless.

Pilgrim: "I happen to think chansen is a "good and decent father and husband". If you had met him in the children's hospital in Toronto with his son Carter, as I did, I suspect you may change your opinion."

The question of chansen's moral goodness and decency as a husband and father has nothing to do with his conduct during Carter's health crisis. Everyone here who posted during that period recognizes that chansen's devotion to his ailing son was absolutely exemplary and deeply moving.
You miss the real issue---the fact that chansen has no rational grounds to claim such moral decency and goodness from an atheistic perspective.
Moral truth assumes that accountability can be enforced, but an atheist lacks any grounds for such an assumption--and that is the decisive point.

Pilgrim: "Many who call ourselves Christians...think the idea of Jesus dying for our sins is a misinterpretation."

It is either ignorance or arrogance for you to presume that Jesus was wrong in His understanding of His mission to die an atoning death for our sins: "The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give His life and ransom for many (Mark 10:45)." You apparently don't realize that Jesus repeatedly predicts His mission to suffer and die.

Pilgrim: "I happen to think that chansen may not believe in God, but that God believes in chansen."\

True--in the sense that God is Love and God's love never permanently abandons anyone after their death. If, after my death, I remember chanson and have a choice in the matter, one of my top priorities will be to inquire into the possibility of his restoration, once he realizes that there is a God after all and he has survived death.

 

[Luce NDs]

Why in great chaos caused by distant politic ... the means and mediums are the ones with loaded thoughtfulness ... having watched what goes on slyly in the tree of life ... serpentine-like ... it wobbles significantly in the brae'Z ... vales between polity ... as there is no room of options like diversity in extreme ends ... misread core quality?

Are winds quantum by chance ?