Sin and Grace

[revsdd]

Nature is based on survival of the fittest, not on survival of the kindest.

On a macro level, as far as evolutionary biology and process is concerned, that's correct. On a micro level, however, there are many species in which the strong have been known to help the weak and injured to survive. Such behaviour has been seen in animals as diverse as dolphins and ants. Wolves have been known to bring food to sick and injured members of the pack. Rats have been known to do the same thing. There have been inter-species examples of what appear to be acts of kindness or altruism. We all know stories of dolphins helping drowning humans - and sometimes even defending them against sharks (dolphins and whales being among the few creatures that even great white sharks tend to shy away from.) There's at least one video taken I believe at the Dublin Zoo where an orangutan very gently rescues a baby bird from drowning. Coco the gorilla had a pet kitten she cared for meticulously. Whether that behaviour is motivated by what humans would call "kindness" or "altruism" or even less likely "morality" is open to question, but I think we need to be careful about taking the macro level concept of survival of the fittest and assuming that's a law of nature on the micro level.

In "The Voice of the Coyote," J. Frank Dobie spoke of the potential for abuse of the survival of the fittest concept: "The fang and claw conception of life in the wild has been overemphasized by a society devoted to propagating the philosophy of greed under the guise of free enterprise."

 

[Luce NDs]

Some people get it and some don't ... is that wild or just a quantum effect?

It still goes 'Ton ... as aberration of word and some do not see the gossamer there ...

 

[revjohn]

Thanks all for the condolences. Rose will be missed and we are relearning new patterns in the wake of her absence. First and foremost is that without Rose around we have to sweep the kitchen floor more often. There will be another thread in Social to share the events of that day. Friends connected to me on facebook are already aware that it was emotionally devastating in ways beyond saying good-bye to an old and loyal friend.

 

[revjohn]

As someone who has a depressive illness, there is nothing "simple" about separation.

Agree and disagree.

Separation between entities is never simple. It is the result of two (at minimum) personalities in conflict.

Where we do not recognize an other in the mix then separation is simply an emotional label and is reduced to how I feel about things at any given moment. Sin'Sinfulness is not a matter of how one "feels."

At it's worst, a depressive episode can include, as it did for me, the frightening experience of not feeling connected to my own body.(severe depersonalisation, I was later told, was the medical terminology.)

An experience which, I suspect, is more complicated to resolve than lightening up.

I admit that my experience of depression, with it's resulting experiences of separation/connection, have given me a way to understand both sin and grace.

That is fair. Experience is a powerful teacher and while I would concur that you probably have a deeper understanding, because of your experiences, with the alienation that is a result of sin I am not altogether confident that you have a clearer grasp of the concept of sin itself. Sin does separate. Sin is not separation.

Also, a religious experience, included for me, as it has many, a feeing of connection with everything and everyone -including God. It does seem a good description of grace......

Yeah, I understand the connection thing.

That isn't grace. It can be a result of grace given, part of the response of gratitude and result of grace extended to us. Grace is a gift not a feeling. It may be a gift which allows certain feelings to arise it is not the feeling itself. That is a problematic understanding.

 

[revsdd]

That isn't grace. It can be a result of grace given, part of the response of gratitude and result of grace extended to us. Grace is a gift not a feeling. It may be a gift which allows certain feelings to arise it is not the feeling itself. That is a problematic understanding.

Exactly.

Sin is sin and grace is grace.

Separation is the result of sin; reconciliation is the result of grace.

 

[Mystic]

Steve,
The question of what makes right actions right is a macro-question. But when I was in grad school, I regularly had dinner with a biologist who specialized in "animal altruism" and such aberrant behavior is fascinating and at times deeply moving at a micro-level.
Theists have an answer to questions like, "What was wrong with Nazi genocide?", but atheists ultimately do not, except to point out their preferred arbitrary social norms and to seek community with those who value such norms.

 

[unsafe]

Does separation from God happen because of sin ----or does separation happen because of iniquity ----that is the real question ----iniquity and sin according to scripture are somewhat separate ----

Iniquity to me is wickedness -perverseness --crookedness ---twistedness ----lawlessness ----it is the Iniquity that is passed on to the 3and 4 generations

Transgression is ----rebellion --to go contrary to a law ---

Sin is the bad fruit that is produced by iniquity and transgression in my opinion -----

Isaiah 59---says this
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 59 - New King James Version

Isaiah 59 (NKJV)
Separated from God
59 Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save;
Nor His ear heavy,
That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,

This below is about False Prophets -----Jesus is speaking here ----last line ---Ye that work iniquity ------

 

[Luce NDs]

Is separation from God (everything) by discriminating choice of denying things lesser than your level of vanity ... or is that just irrational discrimination form the hole thing ... the great abyss of lost thoughts?

Several lines of thought may be required to support this outside thought ... a Black Swan Treatise?

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Does separation from God happen because of sin ----or does separation happen because of iniquity ----that is the real question ----iniquity and sin according to scripture are somewhat separate ----

Iniquity to me is wickedness -perverseness --crookedness ---twistedness ----lawlessness ----it is the Iniquity that is passed on to the 3and 4 generations

Transgression is ----rebellion --to go contrary to a law ---

Sin is the bad fruit that is produced by iniquity and transgression in my opinion -----

unsafe, whilst Paul Tillich and I might disagree with your definition of sin - I appreciate your humility in saying "in my opinion". It's something that many of us here could learn from you.

 

[Luce NDs]

Opinion is a po' lyre understood word then many would think ... but then considering the emotional content .. who dath ought it ?

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Unsafe:
Iniquity is immoral and unjust behaviour. And Sin is an immoral act breaking/transgressing a divine law. (However these were simply your opinion.)
I myself can be guilty of transgression and even iniquity but never sin. I cannot be separated from a god. a god would need to exist, and I would need to believe that it does for sin or separation to mean anything. Sin is solely a religious thing.

 

[Luce NDs]

Unsafe:
Iniquity is immoral and unjust behaviour. And Sin is an immoral act breaking/transgressing a divine law. (However these were simply your opinion.)
I myself can be guilty of transgression and even iniquity but never sin. I cannot be separated from a god. a god would need to exist, and I would need to believe that it does for sin or separation to mean anything. Sin is solely a religious thing.

One has to believe to partake? I'll go for the abstract and the dark force of imagination and shy away from what's reality ... soak up mental immaterial stuff ... they say that's just my imagination working ... odd stuff come out of it in flashes ... sometimes resembling and odd streak in the market ... bazaar?

 

[Ichthys]

If sin is separation from God, then sin is freedom.

 

[Luce NDs]

If sin is separation from God, then sin is freedom.

Fits in with god is out there between everyone as hidden intelligence of the neighbour ... the one you didn't know you really liked? Just Tu goth to be virtue!

Muse Ta B'N B aD ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

If Godde is everything and everywhere, then separation from Godde is not possible. Hence, freedom is an illusion.

 

[Luce NDs]

If Godde is everything and everywhere, then separation from Godde is not possible. Hence, freedom is an illusion.

That's why I have that fascination with illusion and untouchables ... for those that don't believe this is tangible ...

Thus the gritty liberal feel ...

Grates on some people at the hob ...