Seriously God, you chose them??????

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Mendalla said:
To maybe put a bit of another spin on the OP topic.

This is a story and it is the story of the founding of a people. Having the main character be a bit of a s**t (a) makes the story more interesting and (b) telegraphs the message that being human is a messy business and moral perfection is simply not going to be found anywhere. Having your tribes founder be less than flawless captures his humanity and that of your people. There are, of course, meanings to be gleaned from some his failings, too.
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Here's an interesting question, then. Why do the Jews accept their prophets/leading lights as flawed, but Christianity insists on a flawless Jesus?
 
BetteTheRed said:
Here's an interesting question, then. Why do the Jews accept their prophets/leading lights as flawed, but Christianity insists on a flawless Jesus?
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Because the Christ is a not just some prophet/leading light. He is the Master of Masters, the Teachers of Teachers, and the Eldest of the Elders.
 
Jae said:
Christianity that adheres to substitutionary sacrifice atonement theology needs a flawless Jesus so that he can pay the cost for everyone else's sins. If he wasn't flawless, he'd just be paying for his own sins.
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You had forgotten a couple of words. That is not the only understanding of the cross or of the atoning work of Jesus (though arguably it is the most prevalent in the Western church, and it one of the fundamentals of fundamentalism)
 
Neo said:
Because the Christ is a not just some prophet/leading light. He is the Master of Masters, the Teachers of Teachers, and the Eldest of the Elders.
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I think Mark's Gospel (where arguably Jesus is at his most human, as opposed to John's Gospel where JEsus is at his most divine) shows that Jesus can be flawed. In the story of the exchange with the Syro-Phoenician woman it appears his biases around ethnicity are challenged, and the challenge is accepted as valid.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Yeah, I like Mark for that. Jesus is always giving the disciples s**t for not getting it...
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I like Mark because it's the earliest of the gospels, because it's action-packed, and because its the gospel through which I feel I came to saving faith.
 
I also love Mark because it's the gospel on which Godspell was based. A favourite movie, a play that I acted in when I was in my early 40s.
 
GordW said:
I think Mark's Gospel (where arguably Jesus is at his most human, as opposed to John's Gospel where JEsus is at his most divine) shows that Jesus can be flawed. In the story of the exchange with the Syro-Phoenician woman it appears his biases around ethnicity are challenged, and the challenge is accepted as valid.
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Jesus, yes, but not the Christ. I believe them not to be the same, except for the last 3 years of his life when the Christ overshadowed the man Jesus and together they experienced the crucifixion. I know it's not an orthodox Christian belief but I'm not alone in believing this.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Here's an interesting question, then. Why do the Jews accept their prophets/leading lights as flawed, but Christianity insists on a flawless Jesus?
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Separates the Jude 'n from the High brew in ... one is power the other somewhat ambient ... ambiguous? A grand linguistic on which to grow satyrs ...
 
Neo said:
Because the Christ is a not just some prophet/leading light. He is the Master of Masters, the Teachers of Teachers, and the Eldest of the Elders.
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Gone recessive, or partisan ... Like Muse in the I've God ... a love that can deprive one of intelligence?

Is there a sense of balance ... or is that too mediocre for politic an ... the original root of anagram? Tis accrued reflection ...
 
Neo said:
Jesus, yes, but not the Christ. I believe them not to be the same, except for the last 3 years of his life when the Christ overshadowed the man Jesus and together they experienced the crucifixion. I know it's not an orthodox Christian belief but I'm not alone in believing this.
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Je Zus ... buried lightly ... without a thought by some romantics ! Someday the spar emerges from the pits ... adepts of mine de/dah/Dei?

Satchmo stated some don't got one ... as a reference to harmonious sol ... a singularly gathered psyche, on the topic of plurality as tribulation?

Good enough for a diatribe ...
 
GordW, regarding my statement about the man Jesus being overshadowed by the Christ, read the following excerpts from the 1948 Alice Bailey book “The Reappearance of the Christ”. It may help to explain why I believe what I do.

God Transcendent, greater, vaster and more inclusive than His created world, is universally recognized and has been generally emphasized; all faiths can say with Shri Krishna (speaking as God, the Creator) that "having pervaded the whole universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain.

This God Transcendent has dominated the religious thinking of millions of simple and spiritually minded people down the centuries which have elapsed since humanity began to press forward towards divinity.

Slowly, there is dawning upon the awakening consciousness of humanity, the great paralleling truth of God Immanent - divinely "pervading" all forms, conditioning from within all kingdoms in nature, expressing innate divinity through human beings and - two thousand years ago - portraying the nature of that divine Immanence in the Person of the Christ. Today, as an outcome of this unfolding divine Presence, there is entering into the minds of men everywhere a new concept: that of "Christ in us, the hope of glory." (Col., I, 27.) There is a growing and developing belief that Christ is in us, as He was in the Master Jesus, and this belief will alter world affairs and mankind's entire attitude to life.

- “The Reappearance of the Christ” by Alice Bailey
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This book, penned by Alice Bailey, who was overshadowed by the Tibetan Master DK, is available online and if you have some time is a very much recommended read. Even if it's just to get an idea of what others, outside of the orthodox circles of Christianity, believe about the reappearance of Christ. Orthodox Christianity does not hold a monopoly on the Christ and what He represents to the world. The Christ belongs to the world and not just one religion. He spoke of this when He referred to His "other sheep".

There are examples in the Bible of overshadowing, such as Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:14), or the Christ, it was hoped, overshadowing the disciple Paul (2 Corinthians 12:9). Of course the wording changes with the different Bibles and descriptors such "reside in", or "rest in me", or "dwell in me", etc, are used instead, but the concept is the same.

In the book of Matthew, 3:16-17, at the baptism of Jesus, we read the words which describe the actual point where the Master Jesus was overshadowed by the Christ. It reads: "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Why would the scriptures suddenly feel the need to have God introduce His Son when Jesus was already living on Earth for 30 years?

In the Alice Bailey book "The Rays & the Initiations" there are described 3 modes of how the reappearance of Christ will happen. Personally, I believe all 3 modes are happening in our lifetime, with the 3rd and last mode of reappearance very quickly drawing near.

1. By His overshadowing of all initiates and disciples who are today or will be at the time of His arrival, active in the three worlds of human evolution. This involves His influencing their minds telepathically. This overshadowing or influencing, will be His primary work upon the mental plane. This will constitute one of His most effective methods in His proposed spiritual interference in world affairs. Through the medium of these members or affiliates of the Hierarchy, He will have outposts of His consciousness in every nation. Through them He can work.

2. By the pouring out of the Christ life or consciousness upon the masses everywhere, and in every nation. This spiritual inflow will bring about the reorienting of human desire, and will evoke the emotional response to His Presence. This therefore brings the astral plane within the active sphere of His influence; this involves the release of the energy of goodwill into the hearts of men, predisposing them towards right human relations. It is this establishing of right relations which is the major objective of His coming triple activity. The masses everywhere will be responsive to the work and the message of Christ, as it is implemented from the mental plane by the disciples and initiates, overshadowed by the mind of Christ.

3. By His physical appearance among men. Through His Own immediate appearance, He can establish a potent focal point of hierarchical energy upon earth, in a manner not hitherto possible. He has never deserted humanity and has always kept His promise to stay with us all the days even unto the end of the age. Men in all lands will know where He can be found. The locale of this focal point of His threefold spiritual activity cannot here be disclosed, for it is contingent upon the results of the sequential process of overshadowing and outpouring.

- "The Rays & the Initiations" by Alice Bailey
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This whole concept probably warrants a thread on it's own to discuss and I apologize for digressing from the original post.



 
There are some that say the Shadow has nothing to do with the-O ... in the lack of light when digging a well for Jack and his dot'r in loss ...

Resembles the myth of Ruth and Nay Omi ... omniscience ... when what was seen wasn't there? The incarnate Shalom ...
 
The Shue thing is for the boids ... give it a kick and a flying fete Ba'aL NG!

A score between uprights? Ambiguity or nothing left ... that was what we stood on silly ...
 
The juice of wrath ... from some gripes as misprint, or redacted grapes ...

After that they went to the desert as raison elle or planting figgies ...
 
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