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Mendalla said:
Right, but those are fairly rare. There has been no repeat of August 2003. I know there's a lot of bellyaching about a Carrington-level solar event but the fact is, we are going through an active solar period right now with minimal impact on grids. There's more required than just a big CME, it has to actually be pointed directly at the Earth, too. There was the Toronto ice storm but, again, that's back to weather and is, again, a fairly rare event.

Things like car crashes or other damage to lines are usually fixed fairly quickly. It's more the mass outage scenarios that are going to take time.

So the question then is how much do you spend for a 1 in a thousand or 1 in a hundred thousand risk. We have a gen at head office because it is the core data centre for our entire operation and losing power there for even an hour would put us in disaster recovery mode. But for a home? When we know we can handle a few hours based on past experience?

Frankly, if I was going to put in backup power, solar panels charging a large battery array would probably be better anyhow. They could also reduce my reliance on the grid in general even when not being used for backup.
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What about hacking into a nuclear power plant and shutting it down....or is that only my imagination working overtime?
 
Waterfall said:
What about hacking into a nuclear power plant and shutting it down....or is that only my imagination working overtime?
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That's a pretty remote possibility. More likely, they would hack the distribution grid and mess with the flow of electricity that way. Still statistically a much lower risk than simple weather. And, really, if it were possible, I am a bit surprised it hasn't happened. Would be a great terrorist tactic. Most likely, it would happen in the context of a war, with hackers on both sides trying to disrupt infrastructure. And governments are waking up to stuff like that and pushing utilities to up their game on security. So, again, is it worth the investment in a generator or similar backup power?

(Also, if I were a hacker, I'd be after the billing database, not the grid. Lots of people have banking or credit card info on file to auto-pay bills.)
 
Mendalla said:
So the question then is how much do you spend for a 1 in a thousand or 1 in a hundred thousand risk. We have a gen at head office because it is the core data centre for our entire operation and losing power there for even an hour would put us in disaster recovery mode. But for a home? When we know we can handle a few hours based on past experience?
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For my folks who are in their 80s and have money and live in a rural area, you install some form of backup power. They're all expensive.


Mendalla said:
Frankly, if I was going to put in backup power, solar panels charging a large battery array would probably be better anyhow. They could also reduce my reliance on the grid in general even when not being used for backup.
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In fact, my parents looked into solar and battery backup first. The company they called asked for their address to get things going. They called back later and said, "Uh, sir? Are you aware you live in a valley?"
 
JayneWonders said:
I think that you and chansen highlight the difference in risk/probability between most urban dwellers and those of us remote/rural folks.
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Yea, I think if I was living in a more rural area with a weather-sensitive grid, my risk-benefit analysis for a generator or solar-battery backup system would change significantly. I know from experience at the cottage that a thunderstorm that might make the lights flicker here in London could down the grid for a few hours up there.
 
chansen said:
In fact, my parents looked into solar and battery backup first. The company they called asked for their address to get things going. They called back later and said, "Uh, sir? Are you aware you live in a valley?
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LOL. Yeah, that wouldn't work so good. I know solar is an option in my neighbourhood because I have neighbours with panels but so much depends on terrain and the orientation of your property.
 
chansen said:
For my folks who are in their 80s and have money and live in a rural area, you install some form of backup power. They're all expensive.



In fact, my parents looked into solar and battery backup first. The company they called asked for their address to get things going. They called back later and said, "Uh, sir? Are you aware you live in a valley?"
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When you say expensive.....what would it cost? (just looking for a guesstimate sort of thing)
 
And when I say that not all electricians can install battery backup units, it's because my neighbour owns an electrical contracting company. He had his guys install his backup generator, but it was their first. They're there every summer upgrading the outdoor lighting and security camera system, so I know some of them by now. It took them two days. They were on the phone to Generac all the time. Every time I saw them I waved. They weren't in the mood to wave back.

My parents, I initially thought, were overcharged. The unit they had installed costs just over a third at Home Depot compared to what they paid for the installed system, but it was done in half a day. I trenched 12ft long by 18in down through gravel for the gas line from the propane tanks to the generator. During Christmas week. Through the snow and frozen ground. Swinging a pick is exactly how I want to spend Christmas, but in my family, that's what you do, lol. But the next day, the power was cut by the utility, and a few hours later they were back to turn the power back on and we were up and running.

My neighbour had to have the utility visit four times. The first day, it was re-energized late in the day with the system still in pieces. Lots of swearing.
 
Mendalla said:
LOL. Yeah, that wouldn't work so good. I know solar is an option in my neighbourhood because I have neighbours with panels but so much depends on terrain and the orientation of your property.
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Nobody told us light travels in straight lines!
 
Waterfall said:
When you say expensive.....what would it cost? (just looking for a guesstimate sort of thing)
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I think my folks paid about $14k. That was 4 years ago? Possibly pandemic pricing, but I doubt it's gone down.

That's for a whole home unit that powers your entire breaker panel. You can choose a smaller unit and only back up, say, some of your breakers. But the savings are not substantial, so most now go with the whole home units.

The unit is solid. Starts once a week to keep everything lubricated and ready. Power goes off, generator goes on. You lose power for a couple of seconds. Maintenance is basically oil change once a year and air filter the same, I assume. The company does the first change, then it's a maintenance fee. I told my dad I'd change the oil, but he still has them do it.

Trust issues. To everyone else, I'm this hyper-capable engineer who can build or fix anything. To my dad, I can't tie my own shoes.

Not really, but it feels that way over some things.
 
chansen said:
I think my folks paid about $14k. That was 4 years ago? Possibly pandemic pricing, but I doubt it's gone down.

That's for a whole home unit that powers your entire breaker panel. You can choose a smaller unit and only back up, say, some of your breakers. But the savings are not substantial, so most now go with the whole home units.

The unit is solid. Starts once a week to keep everything lubricated and ready. Power goes off, generator goes on. You lose power for a couple of seconds. Maintenance is basically oil change once a year and air filter the same, I assume. The company does the first change, then it's a maintenance fee. I told my dad I'd change the oil, but he still has them do it.

Trust issues. To everyone else, I'm this hyper-capable engineer who can build or fix anything. To my dad, I can't tie my own shoes.

Not really, but it feels that way over some things.
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Well I suppose some folks could pull some equity out of the house to do it if they wanted to do it that way....I was guessing 20 thousand.
 
chansen said:
And when I say that not all electricians can install battery backup units, it's because my neighbour owns an electrical contracting company. He had his guys install his backup generator, but it was their first. They're there every summer upgrading the outdoor lighting and security camera system, so I know some of them by now. It took them two days. They were on the phone to Generac all the time. Every time I saw them I waved. They weren't in the mood to wave back.
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Yeah, I don't know who my aunt used but at work, we have a electrical company that focuses on these kinds of corporate systems. And even they have had to call in an actual Generac tech at least once.
 
Waterfall said:
Well I suppose some folks could pull some equity out of the house to do it if they wanted to do it that way....I was guessing 20 thousand.
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If it was a case of life safety, maybe. The cheaper way to survive is what Jaynewonders is doing, with a smaller generator and extension cords.

Tying into your (gas) furnace is dicey, though. You have to add a plug to it. They run on 110V, which isn't the problem. They problem is they're hardwired. For me, if it came down to it, I could wire in a plug and make sure that when the power came back on it wouldn't be feeding back to the generator, which could seriously suck. Otherwise, I assume an electrician could install some sort of temporary power disconnect for a small generator.

A small generator is a maintenance item and if you don't keep it up, the gas will go stale or the carb will gum up. So you run it a couple times a year and keep the tank dry until you use it. But we're talking $1k (plus a few hundred for an electrician I assume) vs maybe $15k.
 
Mendalla said:
Yeah, I don't know who my aunt used but at work, we have a electrical company that focuses on these kinds of corporate systems. And even they have had to call in an actual Generac tech at least once.
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That electrician was about ready to throw the whole unit in the stormwater pond. If you don't work on them, they are a mystery I'm told. My dad hired a guy who only does that work. Brings the units in one trailer load at a time. He's based out of Barrie and advertises around vacation property areas from Collingwood to Muskoka. I'm guessing he's doing just fine. Plus maintenance is $300/yr, which he obviously does when installs are slow and I bet costs about $50 in oil and filters. Bring a helper, average 8 maintenance calls a day. 8 times $250... Sounds like a pretty sweet gig to me.

My dad has a 22KW unit I think? It has a polycarbonate body. Where I live, some homes get the metal-bodied commercial units that I'm sure cost double. In an area where I can't remember when the last power outage occurred.
 
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chansen said:
n an area where I can't remember when the last power outage occurred.
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Which is like my area. That's why I wonder if solar charging a battery pack would be better for my place. At least that would get used outside of outages and might cut down what I pay to my utility. At this point, though, if I do retire in a couple years as I have been thinking, we might only be in the place maybe another 3-5 years so not sure the investment is worth it anymore. If I had done a decade or two ago (the house turns 25 next year), maybe.
 
Waterfall said:
I remember we had a large outage in eastern Canada.....it affected us in Ontario and Quebec for quite awhile. I think it was 2003? It's possible.
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Okay, Waterfall... that was 11 years ago. The last one I experienced was over 6 years ago, back when we used to live in Toronto. They seem a thing of the past
 
Jae said:
Okay, Waterfall... that was 11 years ago. The last one I experienced was over 6 years ago, back when we used to live in Toronto. They seem a thing of the past
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Nah, they just don't happen often. The Toronto one would be the ice storm I mentioned. We are probably due soon.
 
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