Revisiting Mark

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paradox3 said:
Not the first time anyone has asked this question. :)

Since Jesus calls the money changers and sellers of doves "robbers" or "thieves", can we assume that dishonest practices were taking place?
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I guess we can assume whatever we want, I assume they were profiting off of the gospel in a perverted sort of way. :giggle:
 
To be honest, I think Jesus' whole style would have to change in the 21st century. Short, pithy stories and bits of wisdom posted to social media (how many of the parables can be told in 288 characters?), a Youtube channel or FB videos of him meeting, healing, and talking to people. Maybe some Rick Mercer-style "rants" even. He might even have to join some web forums. :whistle:
 
Mendalla said:
To be honest, I think Jesus' whole style would have to change in the 21st century. Short, pithy stories and bits of wisdom posted to social media (how many of the parables can be told in 288 characters?), a Youtube channel or FB videos of him meeting, healing, and talking to people. Maybe some Rick Mercer-style "rants" even. He might even have to join some web forums. :whistle:
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The Bible still seems to be working just fine....look at us discussing Mark.;)
 
Waterfall said:
In modern times would this include bake sales, yard sales, charging for special concerts in the church, making AA pay for rent, charging for coffee/tea at a kiosk, selling T shirts,etc.....?
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Ah, this is a difficult one, isn't it? I think of the criteria as "fair value for money". If the pies are home-made, delicious, and the same price roughly that you'd pay for them elsewhere, fair enough. AA is using gas, hydro and water that we have to pay for; their contribution helps. If you enjoy music and the sanctuary has good acoustics, a nice sound system, and a beautiful old concert grand, why would you not enjoy an inexpensive concert? We tend to make coffee/tea "free" with a "free will offering jar" which usually covers most of the cost, of the cookies at least, lol. We also have stuff for sale, like lenten reflections and calendars, but they're usually offered 'at cost', or even a little below.

But then, when our building hosts a lecture series for an outside group, we actually charge $5 or something for coffee/tea/goodies, and when we cater a funeral from outside the congregation, there is a set donation in exchange for said catering. So there you're getting into a bit of profit that makes some people a little uncomfortable, myself included.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Ah, this is a difficult one, isn't it? I think of the criteria as "fair value for money". If the pies are home-made, delicious, and the same price roughly that you'd pay for them elsewhere, fair enough. AA is using gas, hydro and water that we have to pay for; their contribution helps. If you enjoy music and the sanctuary has good acoustics, a nice sound system, and a beautiful old concert grand, why would you not enjoy an inexpensive concert? We tend to make coffee/tea "free" with a "free will offering jar" which usually covers most of the cost, of the cookies at least, lol. We also have stuff for sale, like lenten reflections and calendars, but they're usually offered 'at cost', or even a little below.

But then, when our building hosts a lecture series for an outside group, we actually charge $5 or something for coffee/tea/goodies, and when we cater a funeral from outside the congregation, there is a set donation in exchange for said catering. So there you're getting into a bit of profit that makes some people a little uncomfortable, myself included.
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I guess I wonder if any of that still falls under being a "house of prayer", which Jesus seemed to be getting upset about. Did he want his temples to be only reserved for prayer?
I'm sure the Rabbis would have a good argument for selling the doves too.
 
Waterfall said:
Did he want his temples to be only reserved for prayer?
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And in fact, many "temples" sit empty, largely, all week.

But to me, a busy "temple" is one that is a community service, a centre for outreach. But you need a bit of extra money for that.
 
And think about it. We all insist on a common currency. Bruce, the farmer up the road, can't bring a truckload of squash to Murph the treasurer, and say "here, sell/barter this to pay the hydro bill". I can't make my monthly PAR contribution in the form of jars of homemade salve.
 
Back to the doves.

At Jesus' baptism, the voice of God was heard from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well-pleased".

The Spirit descended like a dove. Isn't it interesting that the spirit descended like a sacrificial animal?
I have never drawn this connection before. :nerd:

I have always thought about the dove as a symbol of peace in this context.
 
Waterfall said:
The Bible still seems to be working just fine....look at us discussing Mark.;)
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The evangelist known as Mark wrote the first "gospel" -- the words mean "good news" about Jesus.

"The gospels are very peculiar types of literature. They're not biographies," says Prof. Paula Fredriksen, "they are a kind of religious advertisement. What they do is proclaim their individual author's interpretation of the Christian message through the device of using Jesus of Nazareth as a spokesperson for the evangelists' position."

The historical evidence suggests that Mark wrote for a community deeply affected by the failure of the First Jewish Revolt against Rome.
 
BetteTheRed said:
But the dove imagery also relates to the Noah story, yes?
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Yes, the dove is sent out to see if the water has receded from the earth. The first time, it returns because it cannot find a place to set down its feet. The second time, it returns with an olive leaf in its mouth and Noah knows the water is gone. The third time, it does not return. These forays of the dove are seven days apart.

Not sure what connection to make between this story and the baptism of Jesus.
 
Waterfall said:
The Bible still seems to be working just fine....look at us discussing Mark.;)
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But that's because it has been engrained in the culture for centuries and we all grew up with it. Biblical references abound in literature, movies, and so on.

But we are talking about Jesus coming cold into the 21st century where most people under 30, maybe even 40 now, get their news, reading material, and communicate with each other online. A written book wouldn't get noticed unless it had an e-book edition and was promoted on Facebook and Twitter. He'd be on social media. Guaranteed. And the gospels wouldn't be collections of hearsay, but curated and edited compilations of his post on websites and FB pages.
 
paradox3 said:
Yes, the dove is sent out to see if the water has receded from the earth. The first time, it returns because it cannot find a place to set down its feet. The second time, it returns with an olive leaf in its mouth and Noah knows the water is gone. The third time, it does not return. These forays of the dove are seven days apart.

Not sure what connection to make between this story and the baptism of Jesus.
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Both a sign of God bringing humanity "to shore"??
 
paradox3 said:
I have always thought about the dove as a symbol of peace in this context.
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It's more a sign of the Holy Spirit descending to call attention to Jesus. At least that's how I read it. The dove as a symbol of peace comes from elsewhere.
 
I was actually wondering how the dove got to be the symbol of the Holy Spirit in the first place. But isn't there something in the Old Testament about the spirit of God hovering over the waters like a dove?

The dove as a symbol of peace has been popularized in present day, often associated with the Noah story.

The dove was a sacrifice acceptable to God as an offering if the individual could not afford a more expensive animal. In Luke's gospel, Joseph and Mary offer two doves when they present Jesus (first born male) in the Temple.
 
Mendalla said:
But that's because it has been engrained in the culture for centuries and we all grew up with it. Biblical references abound in literature, movies, and so on.

But we are talking about Jesus coming cold into the 21st century where most people under 30, maybe even 40 now, get their news, reading material, and communicate with each other online. A written book wouldn't get noticed unless it had an e-book edition and was promoted on Facebook and Twitter. He'd be on social media. Guaranteed. And the gospels wouldn't be collections of hearsay, but curated and edited compilations of his post on websites and FB pages.
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Jesus wouldn’t have been noticed too much, if it hadn’t been made the ruling religion later on. In past times, politics and religion went hand in hand- since this isn’t the case anymore, unfortunately only fire and brimstone messages seem to be having a chance of spreading maybe in in combination with climate change related natural disaster.
Hence, that’s why populism is so popular. I don’t see any chance for a religious message becoming widespread in the future unless it is mandated and people are brain washed.
 
paradox3 -----Not sure what connection to make between this story and the baptism of Jesus.

In The Noah Chapter ---the dove is symbolized as itself a bird ----as Noah sends it out to see the state of the ground ---

The Dove in scripture represents different things -----and the Holy Spirit is one when it descends on Jesus -----and sacrifice as you have said is one

Read different meanings for Doves here -----
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/dove/
 
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