Revisiting Mark

[paradox3]

I always think of Mary and Joseph riding a donkey to Bethlehem. But I just checked with Luke's gospel and it doesn't suggest this at all.

Am I conflating the stories or have I seen this image on Christmas cards? I'm not sure.

 

[paradox3]

Or this might be the source of the idea:

The Friendly Beasts

Sufjan Stevens

Verse 2

"I, " said the donkey, shaggy and brown,
"I carried his mother up hill and down;
I carried his mother to Bethlehem town."
"I, " said the donkey, shaggy and brown.

Mary takes Verse 2 here:

 

[Mendalla]

I always think of Mary and Joseph riding a donkey to Bethlehem. But I just checked with Luke's gospel and it doesn't suggest this at all.

Interesting point. It is a common image in popular renditions of the story, like Christmas cards you mention, and it makes sense. Someone in their last trimester isn't likely to be walking on a long journey. I thought maybe the Mary on the donkey image could have come from the flight to Egypt in Matthew, but no mention of a mount there either. Did later tradition just toss it in as a kind of parallel to the donkey in the Matthew and John versions of the triumphal entry??

 

[paradox3]

The three wise men or magi is a similar scenario. Matthew names three gifts (gold, frankincense and myrrh) but doesn't indicate how many people were actually carrying those gifts.

 

[unsafe]

My View --on the Fig tree

First off in understanding the Fig tree ---we need to understand how the fig tree relates to Nation of Israel and how it is used to symbolically represent Israel ---and -we also need to read the Chapter in context to see what was happening before they got to the Fig tree incident ----

I say ---This gives us a glimpse of the fig tree symbolizing Israel ---Scripture answering scripture ----

Hosea 9:10 (AMP)
10
I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness [an unexpected and refreshing delight];
I saw your fathers (ancestors) as the first ripe fruit on the fig tree in its first season,
But they came to Baal-peor and consecrated themselves to shamefulness [the worship of Baal],
And [because of their spiritual and physical adultery] they became as detestable and loathsome as the thing they loved.

I say ----So we know the fig tree is Israel -----here ----

Now you need to know how a fig tree works -----the fruit appears before the leaves ----read about fig trees here
http://www.scienceofcorrespondences.com/fig-tree.htm


I say ---So this tree had leaves but no figs -----even though it was out of season ---so the figs should have been present before the leaves showed up -----So there should have been figs there --- So this shows it was professing to have fruit but it didn't -----So it is like False Advertiseing


I say --So the tree was cursed because it had the outward form but bore no fruit and ---so this is symbolizing Israel here who like the tree bore the outer form ----but were bearing no fruit because of their unbelief in Who Jesus was and what He came to do -----

This is about true and False Christians -----True Christians will always bear the right fruit ------

 

[unsafe]

My view on the confusion of the colt and ass confusion

If we look up the Greek word for ass in the Greek --it clears up the confusion ----Just because the Scripture uses different terms in different Gospels does not mean they are conflicting each other ---doing a bit of research helps to make us see things more clearly ----God warns of very grave consequences for anyone changing the meaning of His word -----I would think that anyone translating a Bible from the Greek or Hebrew or any other language into English would take the upmost care to make sure they get it right ------Just My opinion here

Strong's Concordance
pólos: a foal
Original Word: πῶλος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: pólos
Phonetic Spelling: (po'-los)
Definition: a foal
Usage: a colt, young ass, foal.

 

[paradox3]

About fig trees.

They are rather unique in producing their first fruits before the leaves. They are also unique in not flowering.

Would it have been reasonable for Jesus to expect figs once the tree was in leaf? Or not? It might depend on the variety of fig tree. I think some of them continue to produce figs all season and others have a later second fruiting.

Could someone have reached the tree before Jesus and eaten the figs already?

I have no difficulty seeing this as a symbolic story. But I have yet to settle on a single explanation for its meaning.

 

[Mendalla]

I have no difficulty seeing this as a symbolic story.

That's really the key here. This is pretty clearly a parable more than an anecdote. It was necessary for the fig to not have fruit for the purposes of the story, so it doesn't. I'm not there's more logic to it than that.

As for interpretation, @unsafe's reading makes a fair bit of sense, especially knowing the reference to Hosea about the figs. Those who do not bear fruit for Jesus/God (ie. are not faithful) will wither. Kind of fits with 25, too, with God offering forgiveness to those who offer it themselves (a sign of bearing fruit). I'd be careful about the "Israel" interpretation as meaning Jews' lack of faith in Jesus will cause them to wither. That way lies the roots of Christian antisemitism. I'd be happy to leave it at Israel not keeping faith with God because of the legalism of the leadership. IOW, this is Jesus as prophetic voice calling the people back to God again as Elijah and Isaiah did before him.

 

[paradox3]

Fruit is a common theme in both old and new testaments.
It is interesting how often some of these things keep appearing. Fruit. Wine. Wheat. Bread. Planting and harvesting, etc.

 

[Mendalla]

Religion and culture were still much more agrarian back then so I think these kinds of metaphors would resonate more. Outside of a few large cities like Rome, Damascus, and Jerusalem, most of the population still lived in smaller towns or rural areas. I'm not sure if even Londinium (the ancestor of modern London, UK) was that big yet at this time. One wonders how a modern Jesus would speak to an urban population that may not even know what a fig (or other fruit) tree looks like and gets all of their fruit from a store shelf or, at most, a farmer's market.

 

[paradox3]

True @Mendalla.

I have just been mulling over the meaning of the bread and the wine in our communion rituals.

These elements did not appear for the first time at the Last Supper.

 

[Waterfall]

Today's reflection Verse ------Jesus said to him, "Go, your faith has healed you.

Fruit is a common theme in both old and new testaments.
It is interesting how often some of these things keep appearing. Fruit. Wine. Wheat. Bread. Planting and harvesting, etc.

Also interesting how Adam and Eve used Fig leaves to cover them...or their sins.

 

[unsafe]

paradox 3 --The three wise men or magi is a similar scenario


I believe many just took that there were 3 Gifts so they just surmised that there were 3 wise men ---We know there was more than one as men is plural ----this in my view is how we can take scripture and preach what the Scripture doesn't really say ---it is like Mary Magdalene many preach that she was a prostitute ----and that is no where in scripture ----

 

[unsafe]

Waterfall ---you said ----Also interesting how Adam and Eve used Fig leaves to cover them

Great point here ----

 

[paradox3]

In similar vein to the donkey, the magi and Mary Magdalene, Genesis never calls the forbidden fruit an apple.

The apple tradition seemingly comes from Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost.

 

[Mendalla]

I have just been mulling over the meaning of the bread and the wine in our communion rituals.

These elements did not appear for the first time at the Last Supper.

Or even just in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Mithraism, a rival to Christianity for a time and popular in the Roman army (Mithras was originally a warrior figure in Zoroastrian mythology), had a communion-like ritual as did some of the other Mysteries.

 

[Mendalla]

The apple tradition seemingly comes from Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost.

Interesting aside:

In the lecture series on Arthurian literature I watched, the prof suggested there was evidence that Milton originally considered doing an Arthurian piece, but that the story of the Fall won out in the end. Had he gone with the first idea, maybe that notion of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Right and Wrong being an apple wouldn't have come about.

 

[Waterfall]

Mark 11
Jesus enters the temple area and begins to drive out the buyers and the sellers. He overturns the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves. The house of the lord has been turned into a den of robbers.

In modern times would this include bake sales, yard sales, charging for special concerts in the church, making AA pay for rent, charging for coffee/tea at a kiosk, selling T shirts,etc.....?

 

[paradox3]

In modern times would this include bake sales, yard sales, charging for special concerts in the church, making AA pay for rent, charging for coffee/tea at a kiosk, selling T shirts,etc.....?

Not the first time anyone has asked this question.

Since Jesus calls the money changers and sellers of doves "robbers" or "thieves", can we assume that dishonest practices were taking place?

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla ---you said ----One wonders how a modern Jesus would speak to an urban population that may not even know what a fig (or other fruit) tree looks like and gets all of their fruit from a store shelf or, at most, a farmer's market.

My View

If Jesus were to come today to speak in this age ---I believe He would as He did with the Israelites He would use words that this modern age would be able to relate to ---like farmers market etc -----I believe He would use parable to -as this would again distinguish His Real Followers from ones who just say they follow Him ---Jesus would be knowing what to say and how to present His message To the modern age before He arrived here -----