Revisiting Mark

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The interweaving of healing and forgiveness is interesting. I am actually not sure which of the two Jesus is saying is easier.

I like the sentence, "Why are you thinking such things in your hearts?"

We might all need to ask ourselves this question sometimes.
 
Waterfall ---you said ----Do you have to be God to be divine, or can you be human and divine too


So this is the Greek word for divine -----

Strong's Concordance
theios: divine
Original Word: θεῖος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: theios
Phonetic Spelling: (thi'-os)
Definition: divine
Usage: divine; subst: the Deity..of the one, true God;


Jesus was Divine and Human ---so He is the only one who I know of who was Divine and Human at the same time -------
 
The interweaving of healing and forgiveness is interesting. I am actually not sure which of the two Jesus is saying is easier.

Is he really saying one is easier, or is he equating them in some way? Saying that it is as easy to forgive as to heal (for him, at least). Just a thought.

Jesus was Divine and Human ---so He is the only one who I know of who was Divine and Human at the same time -------

If you're a traditional theist, sure. But if you're a pantheist (all is God) then everything is Divine from quarks up to the entire universe and everything in it. Of course, that makes for a very different understanding of the Incarnation since we are all technically "God Incarnate". I'm not sure that I am a pantheist anymore (I'm not sure what I am right now) but I was there for a time.
 
Jesus was Divine and Human ---so He is the only one who I know of who was Divine and Human at the same time ------
Scripture certainly gives us this with Jesus being God's only begotten Son.

Some of the Eastern religions talk about there being a divine spark in everyone. The greeting "Namaste" which is becoming popular these days means "the divine in me greets the divine in you". I see this as somewhat akin to the Jewish and Christian idea that we are made in God's image
 
Some of the Eastern religions talk about there being a divine spark in everyone.

They lean more to a form of panentheism, though, rather than a purely transcendant deity. You see this clearly in the Gita. In fact, I first encountered the term "panentheism" in a first year course on Eastern religions in university. My first exposure to the Western process version of panentheism came in fourth year (in a course at St. Paul's College, the UCCan affiliate at University of Waterloo).
 
Okay, back to Mark.

We still haven't hit another Jesus "Greatest Hit" saying in Mark 2:15-17, specifically his words in 17.

15 And as he sat at dinner[c] in Levi’s[d] house, many tax collectors and sinners were also sitting[e] with Jesus and his disciples—for there were many who followed him. 16 When the scribes of[f] the Pharisees saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, they said to his disciples, “Why does he eat[g] with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard this, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”

For some reason, I have always liked that line about coming for the sinners, being a physician to those who are ill. It really makes the point that Jesus is not about those who keep the law (whatever that means, he seems to take it differently than the religious leaders), who are "healthy" spiritually, but those who do not or who struggle with their spiritual life.
 
If you're a traditional theist, sure. But if you're a pantheist (all is God) then everything is Divine from quarks up to the entire universe and everything in it. Of course, that makes for a very different understanding of the Incarnation since we are all technically "God Incarnate". I'm not sure that I am a pantheist anymore (I'm not sure what I am right now) but I was there for a time.
I consider myself to be a person of faith. And a Christian although that gets controversial around here sometimes. Person of faith is really how I self-identify. My mother was also a person of faith and my father is an agnostic. A very tolerant agnostic, I might add. Recently I have been giving some thought to how my upbringing influenced my thinking. I don't consider myself to be an agnostic although by some definitions, I might be.

Panentheism appeals to me and makes sense but I don't use the term for myself. I find some of our United Church ministers speak in a way that is fairly consistent with panentheism without identifying it as such.

I know some folks who like to say Jesus was "a" son of God but not "the" son of God. . . the implication being we are all sons and daughters of God. This doesn't settle much for me.
 
Panentheism appeals to me and makes sense but I don't use the term for myself. I find some of our United Church ministers speak in a way that is fairly consistent with panentheism without identifying it as such.

Panentheism is, to my mind, more compatible with Christianity than pantheism.The "en" means "in", so that it translates to plain English as "All is in God" rather than "All is God". For a God anything like what we see in the Bible to exist, I think there needs to be a transcendent element and pantheism lacks that. God is purely immanent and, really, it's hard to see such a God as being a personality. In my pantheist period, I saw it more as the inherent divinity of all things than a personal deity. Panentheism has a God who is both immanent (present in the world) and transcendent (beyond it such that the world is "in" God), so there is, or can be, a personal God who is also present in the world.
 
One minute Jesus tells us to forgive 77 x7 and then were told only God can forgive....which is it?
 
One minute Jesus tells us to forgive 77 x7 and then were told only God can forgive....which is it?

That wasn't him saying only God could forgive, though, is it? That's the scribes and Pharisees.

6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:6-7, NRSV)
 
That wasn't him saying only God could forgive, though, is it? That's the scribes and Pharisees.

6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 2:6-7, NRSV)
But I thought most Jews don't believe in original sin and they always thought one could atone for their sins? And doesn't it also say WE are to forgive others or God won't forgive us (king james)?
 
AFAIK, sins against God are atoned for on Yom Kippur.
,
Sins against fellow human beings require actual restitution with those individuals. An apology is not enough, in other words. The wrong has to be righted somehow.
 
But I thought most Jews don't believe in original sin and they always thought one could atone for their sins?

Perhaps, but keep in mind we are in a context here where Original Sin doesn't really exist as a doctrine. Sin would be about behaviour and breaking God's Law which, of course, means needing the forgiveness of the lawgiver, ie. God. I am speculating based on the text,, though.

One has to keep in mind that Mark is trying to play up Jesus as superior to the scribes, so I am not sure that you really learn much about their beliefs from this so much as Jesus'.

The message, in the end, is that the Son of God/Man (take your pick) can forgive sins that only God should be able to forgive.
 
Mark 3

Jesus enters the synagogue on the Sabbath and heals a man with a withered hand. The Pharisees are outraged and begin plotting with the Herodians to have Him assassinated..

Jesus goes away to the sea with his disciples, followed by a great multitude from Galilee. All who are afflicted with diseases press in on him for healing. Jesus asks the disciples to prepare a small boat for him. The unclean spirits fall down before Jesus and cry out, "You are the Son of God." Jesus sternly orders them not to make him known.

After going up the mountain, Jesus calls the twelve. They are to be with him & to go out to preach. They are given the authority to cast out demons.

Jesus returns home and such a crowd gathers they are not able to eat. His family goes out to restrain him because they think he is out of his mind. The experts in the law declare that he is possessed by Beelzebul. Jesus responds in parables and he warns that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

The mother and brothers of Jesus ask for him. But Jesus replies that whoever does the will of God is his mother and brother and sister.

For reflection today:

Now Jesus went up the mountain and called for those he wanted, and they came to him. (Mark 3: 13 NET)
 
The momentum of the story continues with crowds of people gathering around Jesus for healing. Jesus asks for a small boat to take him out on the sea to give him a little space. He retreats to the mountain before calling the rest of the disciples and granting authority to the twelve to cast out demons. In Luke's gospel, Jesus prays at this time.

The religious leaders are angry enough to begin plotting against him and even his own family thinks he is out of his mind. But the unclean spirits recognize him as the Son of God.

It seems that Jesus is beginning to understand he needs assistance from others to carry out His mission.

Now Jesus went up the mountain and called for those he wanted, and they came to him.

Is this still true today? Does Jesus still call? Who does Jesus want in our time?
 
The text raises a few other questions.

Why do the unclean spirits recognize Jesus as the Son of God? His own family and the Pharisees don't seem to understand this at all.

What exactly is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What makes it unforgiveable?

Why is Jesus talking in parables? Is he motivated by fear?
 
paradox3 ----you said ----This really puzzles me. Why would the faith of the four others allow for the man's sins to be forgiven?

This is my view ----Hope it is OK for posting on Yesterdays statement ------as it may give some understanding about why his Sins were forgiven to heal the man -----


I say -----The faith of the four had Faith in Jesus to heal this man ---their Faith was strong as they didn't let the crowd deter them from getting the man to Jesus they took drastic measures ---------in order to understand why Jesus healed this man by forgiving his Sins ----we need to understand the word infirmities ----you can read more at link provided ----I posted this for the word infirmities ---which is linked to what the man suffered from -----

posting here

Smith's Bible Dictionary
https://biblehub.com/topical/p/palsy.htm
Palsy [N] [E]
(contracted from paralysis ). The loss of sensation or the power of motion, or both, in any part of the body. The infirmities included under this name in the New Testament were various:--
  1. The paralytic shock affecting the whole body, or apoplexy.
  2. That affecting only one side.
  3. Affecting the whole system below the neck.

Posting here ---read all if interested

The Greek word for infirmity is ----astheneia
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g769

ἀσθένεια asthéneia, as-then'-i-ah; from G772; feebleness (of mind or body); by implication, malady; morally, frailty:—disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.
want of strength, weakness, infirmity
  1. of the body
    1. its native weakness and frailty
    2. feebleness of health or sickness
  2. of the soul

I say -----So Jesus had the authority to forgive sins and this illness needed to have the forgiveness of sins to be healed---The 4 men had the strong faith to get the man to Jesus and Jesus saw that Faith and knew they were wanting this man healed in their hearts ------

I say -----This is very important for us today as the Blood of Jesus dealt with infirmities and toady for anyone receiving Jesus in their hearts as their Lord and Saviour can rid themselves of all infirmities -----Jesus said ---it is finished -----Isaiah 53 1-:5 --by His stripes you Are Healed -----


This is commentary from Matthew Henry on this passage

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/Matthew-Henry/Mark/Christ-Heals-One-Sick-Palsy


Christ heals one sick of the palsy.


It was this man's misery that he needed to be so carried, and shows the suffering state of human life; it was kind of those who so carried him, and teaches the compassion that should be in men, toward their fellow-creatures in distress. True faith and strong faith may work in various ways; but it shall be accepted and approved by Jesus Christ. Sin is the cause of all our pains and sicknesses. The way to remove the effect, is to take away the cause. Pardon of sin strikes at the root

of all diseases. Christ proved his power to forgive sin, by showing his power to cure the man sick of the palsy. And his curing diseases was a figure of his pardoning sin, for sin is the disease of the soul; when it is pardoned, it is healed. When we see what Christ does in healing souls, we must own that we never saw the like. Most men think themselves whole; they feel no need of a physician, therefore despise or neglect Christ and his gospel. But the convinced, humbled sinner, who despairs of
all help, excepting from the Saviour, will show his faith by applying to him without delay. (Mk 2:13-17)
 
The calling of the twelve and the speaking in parables once again has me in mind of classic "guru" or "master" or maybe a classical mystery religion (which Christianity is sometimes counted as being). These types of religions generally feature a leader passing teachings to an "inner circle" and using obscure stories or language to couch teachings in a way that only the "initiates" can understand. I know that's an image of early Christianity that we aren't comfortable with today, and it seemed to move beyond that once Jesus was gone, but here it really has that feel.

Why do the unclean spirits recognize Jesus as the Son of God?

Know your enemy? I mean, the unclean Spirits must recognize Jesus for who he is given that he is "fully divine" and therefore must belong to their realm as well as the physical realm. They likely also recognize why he has come and that it mostly involves undoing their dirty work.

What exactly is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What makes it unforgiveable?

Actually, I was reading this again and it actually seems to refer to the religious leaders who claimed Jesus was possessed by an unclean spirit himself. Since he was, in fact, possessed of the Holy Spirit, he is basically accusing them of claiming the Holy Spirit is unclean, hence the blasphemy. The key is that final bit of verse 30 that I bolded below.

Mark 3:28-30 NRSV said:
28 “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30 for they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

Now, why is it unforgivable? Good question. Does this mean one can blaspheme the Father or the Son and be forgiven but not the Spirit? Don't quite get that. Surely if God is three in one, blaspheming one is an attack on the whole. But this seems to single out the Holy Spirit for special treatment.
 
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