News about Five Oaks

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Answers to some questions:
1. Could you just come and stay on the land for free: No.
2. Could you negotiate coming and staying on the land in exchange for participating in the work of the space. It depends. We have people who do that. I recommend that you watch for Adult Work camps.
3. Membership is for voting rights and will result in increased communications. You do not need to be a member to stay here as an attendant in a program or for you to rent the space to offer a program.
4. I have stayed in the chalet with Jae & his lovely wife as part of a wondercafe gathering many years ago. I do not forsee it happening again in the near future, but, never say never.
5. Open hospitality is and has been offered to many people who enter the grounds to be part of the community. I don't see that changing.
 
I like Mendalla's description of 'sacred space' - and I like the wording of 'space' rather than 'place'. To me 'space' speaks more to the activities therein, to the attitude and experience of being somewhere, whereas 'place' to me is more about geography or architecture. Perhaps splitting hairs to some, but for me, language is important.
I do believe that Five Oaks used to advertise as sacred space ... wonder why they would change it to place. I agree language is important ...
 
Sacred place:

Here is a quote from Mardi Tindal, a Past Executive Director at Five Oaks, as well as our maintenance manager, Tom Hunt:
Pilgrimage can also be about noticing points of connection between our inner and outer journeys. Tom Hunt, the maintenance co-ordinator for Five Oaks, was one of the first to respond to this column’s invitation in January to share one’s spiritual practices. He describes his daily rituals in caring for a place that also serves as a pilgrimage destination for others: “When I take time to walk on one of our trails along Whiteman’s Creek and the Grand River, I look around and simply observe my surroundings. I am always amazed when I sight a wild turkey, a great blue heron, an otter, beaver, deer and the majestic bald eagle . . . . I give my full attention and presence to this Sabbath time and become aware of God’s presence in nature and in me. My prayers are filled with gratitude and I am comforted by the knowledge that God’s creation is cared for by God and by my work.”
from: Soul Work - The UC Observer


I am supposed to be doing volunteer work at Five Oaks so will consider finding later information about the history of five Oaks, going back to prior to treaties and ownership, when the six nations gathered at the confluence of whiteman's creek and the grand river.

The history of people coming to be filled with the spirit on this land goes back for long before my time.

 
the shift from space to place may have come from the realization that online space is different from physical land/place.
Not sure, but, if it is really important to folks I can ask those who are more into language and theology
 
Answers to some questions:
1. Could you just come and stay on the land for free: No.
2. Could you negotiate coming and staying on the land in exchange for participating in the work of the space. It depends. We have people who do that. I recommend that you watch for Adult Work camps.
3. Membership is for voting rights and will result in increased communications. You do not need to be a member to stay here as an attendant in a program or for you to rent the space to offer a program.
4. I have stayed in the chalet with Jae & his lovely wife as part of a wondercafe gathering many years ago. I do not forsee it happening again in the near future, but, never say never.
5. Open hospitality is and has been offered to many people who enter the grounds to be part of the community. I don't see that changing.
I wonder if I could negotiate a voluntary position as the executive director and pay the receptionists with the salary that I could have 'worked' for.
 
Five Oaks has had staff people work for reduced salary or other compensation. If the skill set matches and it is an open opportunity, what a wonderful gift it is.
There are some guidelines that I understand exist regarding "compensation", so for example, if you work and you get a house, then, that is taxable, (or so I remember).
If you were paid, though, and gave the money back, awesome -- how great a gift is that.

I will say, that we have previous staff who have been here and have been part of the teams, some offering multiple days / week of volunteer time. They are a huge gift to FIve Oaks.
 
Sacred place:

Here is a quote from Mardi Tindal, a Past Executive Director at Five Oaks, as well as our maintenance manager, Tom Hunt:
Pilgrimage can also be about noticing points of connection between our inner and outer journeys. Tom Hunt, the maintenance co-ordinator for Five Oaks, was one of the first to respond to this column’s invitation in January to share one’s spiritual practices. He describes his daily rituals in caring for a place that also serves as a pilgrimage destination for others: “When I take time to walk on one of our trails along Whiteman’s Creek and the Grand River, I look around and simply observe my surroundings. I am always amazed when I sight a wild turkey, a great blue heron, an otter, beaver, deer and the majestic bald eagle . . . . I give my full attention and presence to this Sabbath time and become aware of God’s presence in nature and in me. My prayers are filled with gratitude and I am comforted by the knowledge that God’s creation is cared for by God and by my work.”
from: Soul Work - The UC Observer


I am supposed to be doing volunteer work at Five Oaks so will consider finding later information about the history of five Oaks, going back to prior to treaties and ownership, when the six nations gathered at the confluence of whiteman's creek and the grand river.

The history of people coming to be filled with the spirit on this land goes back for long before my time.
Tom Hunt and I have something in common then - his 'work day' sounds a lot like mine in the yard that I currently occupy and have the privilege of maintaining voluntarily (short the spotting of a great blue heron).
 
Sacred place:

I am supposed to be doing volunteer work at Five Oaks so will consider finding later information about the history of five Oaks, going back to prior to treaties and ownership, when the six nations gathered at the confluence of whiteman's creek and the grand river.

The history of people coming to be filled with the spirit on this land goes back for long before my time.

Yes I did some volunteer work at the White Earth Reservation this week past. I played the VLT's in the largest community of Mahnomen, which is now predominantly non-Indian in population.

Presently The White Earth Reservation owns and operates an Event Center, a hotel, the Shooting Star Casino (to which I am a member), the White Earth Housing Authority, the Reservations College, and other business enterprises.

The White Earth reservation is the home to the White Earth Band, located in northwestern Minnesota. It is the largest Indian reservation in that state by land area. The poverty rate on the White Earth Reservation may be near 50%. The unemployment rate on the White Earth Reservation is near 25%. The White Earth Reservation is classified as the poorest reservation in the State of Minnesota.

It would be interesting to find out what it was like before the Nelson Act of 1889 took effect.
 
Now that many training centers have been closing and because we have been talking

about Sacred Space, Sacred Place and Holy Ground, I have a question. For instance, PCTC was

Sacred to me. When it closed is the land still sacred ? If I went there would I still feel that Holy

feeling?( If this should be moved to a thread of it's own, please tell me
 
Gosh, i think it should be in the thread, and is a great question.

I have had folks say that when fights are going on in a church, they do not feel that they are in a sanctuary or hoI can ly place.
I am not sure what part of me (and my ability to connect with that which I call holy), and the space itself would make it feel...

On this land, I can feel it when I am coming down the driveway....and when I spend time by the river. In part, it is a cultivated / experiential, like walking into a families place, but, I would say it is more.
In part, it is because of what people do here, and as long as there is memory here, then, it stays holy.....for the people carry.
Maybe that is like sacred fire, where you keep the fire embers going from place to place.

So, if the land was developed or raped for gravel, would it be holy. I think it would weep, and feel the weeping of people for generations of story. and we would hope someday, that story continued.
 
I have had folks say that when fights are going on in a church, they do not feel that they are in a sanctuary or hoI can ly place.

So, I just left a church in which there certainly were disputes. I have to say, though, I never questioned whether the sanctuary was holy or not. More, I had the feeling that God was in that place, but that we were each, and collectively, just trying to figure out what God wanted us to be doing.. There was a heaviness about the place to me. I could feel that there was so much potential there, that God was keenly interested in revisioning the place and making it grand if only we would all work together to make it a great church. I still believe in it. I still pray for it.
 
Here is an example. At a music week, Carolyn \McDade led us in chanting

in the big dining room . Many people. Nothing I had ever experienced and without Carolyn, I probably never will

again. But on a quiet night at the centre, whenever I went into this room, I could hear the chanting. It was Holy.

But now that it is closed ,I wonder if it would just be a dining room.
 
i understand Crazyheart. We had many people who came on the site of Five Oaks, when they thought it was closing to experience the land one more time. It is a good question, and that deeper question may be something for another thread. I too have memories of singing with Carolyn McDade and circle times though mine are at Five Oaks.
 
Sacred space is a difficult concept.

Does it mean that I find the space to be sacred and you must also or that you find the space sacred and now I am obligated to believe the same thing?

In shared systems I think that there is some co-operation around which spaces should be considered sacred. I don't know that God feels obligated to play along with our expectations of what space should be.

My ties to Five Oaks run deep but not because of any personal connection I have so much as some of the people I have been closest to were among the crowd that responded to Bev Oaten's call and Bev was minister at my home congregation long before I darkened its doorstep.

I respect that Five Oaks is sacred space for others.

I respect that in First Nation's lore a confluence was a sacred space.

I have been at Fie Oaks engaged in work for the Church I found sacred.

Five Oaks itself does not enable me to come closer to God. Other places have, other places do and I am fully aware that individuals who do feel Five Oaks to be sacred may not feel what I feel in those other places.

I think it has less to do with the geography of a place and more to do with experience in a place.

I am mindful that Five Oaks does not insist that it is the only sacred space. It does appeal to a provenance (First Nations Spirituality) which is typically not accessible to me by virtue of my not being First Nations. I respect it. I don't own it.

I don't know that Sacred Space can actually be guaranteed to anyone unless God permits to it.

That said, I don't think Five Oaks promises to much by referring to itself as sacred space. There is definitely an attempt to engage the sacred at Five Oaks which you may or may not agree with. There is definitely nothing at Five Oaks which could prevent me from discerning the sacred if it chose to reveal itself to me.

So, at the end of the day, experience is important. Moreso, I believe, that geography.
 
@Pinga u asked 4 feedback regarding the website
I'm using a Galaxy Grand Prime
Looked ar the site using Google Chrome & Firefox:
All links and pages appear to load ok

Looks like a gorgeous...Sangha? Place to recharge spiritually (good photos btw)

Also nice to see the About Us links at the head instead of at the end of a drop down menu :3
 
From previous conversations, I assume that Five Oaks is under some difficulty and would need to gather new clientele. So I have looked at it as an outsider who might be looking for accommodations (and basically, as an Anglican from Montréal, I am indeed an outsider).


Who do you want to appeal with the website? Five Oaks may be a well-known name in high circles of the United Church, but is it well known outside of it? I guess from previous discussions that you want more activity, but should it be only from United-Church sponsored groups, from other churches, or for "civilian groups" that want to organize some kind of social/business event, or even for individuals who would like a weekend on their own away from the crowd?

Content wise, I learn more in the logo "Education and retreat center" than in anything else present on the first page. It might be old fashioned, but I like to see what's in it for me right in the splash screen, even before using the down arrow.

So I would probably put a bullet-point version of the content of the "Who we are" page (Who-We-Are - Five Oaks Education and Retreat Centre) along with the address right on the main page so that right away, the reader would know that's a center in Paris (Ontario) open to this kind of people and for these kind of activities. On the other hand, I'm not sure the blurb about being an "affirming centre" has its place on the front page: if I were to go there on my own for a weekend, then it may be nice to know that you'll respect the non-discrimination laws, but if I go as part of a group, then it's basically the group's policy that will decide on my inclusion there. If there is anything, the blurb on being an affirming centre might go on the "who may rent" page, in that my interpretation of it would be that you won't rent to a group that is opposed to same-sex marriage, for example.

As to the famous question "Why should I/our group go there?", I assume that for individuals you need to stress (pun intended) the relaxing environment. But for groups who want to use the facilities for a meeting, I think you need to use examples of what hotels and other meeting halls offer on their website (usually in a PDF document). Example of things missing:
– how far from downtown Paris, Brantford, Kitchener or London? (i.e. suitable or not for a marriage or for a day-long meeting?)
– possibility to use projection (computer system, projector and screen or tvs);
– blackboards, write-on boards, flip charts, etc.;
– microphones (in larger rooms);
– wi-fi (I know there is, but is the speed sufficient to broadcast live a Youtube video or access a remote database, for example);
– cell coverage;
– food : are menus fairly strict of does each group negotiate what they want?
– if it rains, is the ground messy or not? bathing or canoeing or cycling opportunities?
– Is it accessible for people with disabilities? By themselves or only with a valid helper? (I don't really want the legalese, but practical aspects. there is no use in having all these nice ramps if they end up in mudded-up trails.)

And because people are unimaginative, you may add examples of events that could be hosted there, especially for social events that are out of the typical group of users. For example, is it great for a marriage with 20 or 200 people?

Content wise, another part that confuses me is the Oaten Institute. What's the difference between programs under "Programs and retreats" and programs under the Oaten Institute? If all programs are offered by the Oaten Institute, then all should come under the same header, and if it's a different body which happens to be located in the same place, then it should be expanded in a website of its own. In fact, it might be a very good way to present the content:
– what is Five Oaks
– What we offer:
Ready-made programs, activities and courses that either individuals or groups can come to(
Rentals and other uses: ex.: personal retreats, rentals for church events (which churches),
rentals for other group activities (ex.: corporate or other social events)


As far as design, others have suggested improvements. My pet peaves are:
– the big round buttons should have a link (most likely a summary page or the first link within);
– as I work with people in body shops and garages, we still have many clients using 1024 * 768 screens;
– it may be for historical reasons, but I don't think the website shrinks nicely on a phone. If it can't easily be done, I think you at least need a main page with basic information and address so that people who are lost on their way to Five Oaks can easily get it on their phone.

Great feedback, thank-you. Have put feelers out to see if I can get some of the information. Changing the physical layout of the page is difficult. Need to farm some of the other programs, specifically wellness type programs so that I can get them into the other buttons. That would help. Also need to show partner programs.
 
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