Making All Things New: (Revelation 21: 1-8)

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People who do not Receive Jesus in their hearts when they die now go to hell -straight a way ------this is not the 2nd death ---the second death takes place at the end of the Tribulation ------so there are 2 deaths for unbelievers -----

When believers die they are immediately with God in heaven ----

Salvation is for the here and now there are no more chances after you die to receive your salvation --


The Bible is clear that every person who has ever lived will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. Like the rich man in the story, multitudes today are complacent in their conviction that all is well with their soul, and many will hear our Savior tell them otherwise when they die (Matthew 7:23).

This story also illustrates that once we cross the eternal horizon, that’s it. There are no more chances. The transition to our eternal state takes place the moment we die (2 Corinthians 5:8; Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23). When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven. When unbelievers die, they are just as immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell.
There are many verses in the Bible that say otherwise. We will all rise together.
And some that say what you say.
 
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
This is speaking of Believers only ---no unbelievers will be included in this ---so not all people are included here

-this is the Rapture of the Church before the tribulation starts -----so all are not Raptured here -----the dead who have received Jesus will rise first and then we who are alive will be caught up in the air with Jesus ----and immediately after that happens the 7 year Tribulation starts

Believers Who Have Died​

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

If you have not Received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour --you will stay here ----


1 Corinthians 15-23
Again this speaks of True Christians --not unbelievers --and if you read the context ---some Christians in Corinth were saying what if Jesus wasn't resurrected then there would be no Resurrection for believers and Paul is assuring them that they will be resurrected ------


1 Corinthians 15:20-23 NIV​

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come,
when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

What does 1 Corinthians 15:23 mean?​

Paul is correcting a mistaken idea among some of the Corinthians that Christians will never be resurrected in bodily form. They apparently believed as taught by the culture around them: that either death is the end of a person completely or that only the spirit goes on into some vague afterlife. Paul is showing that, instead, Christians will be resurrected to full, physical life just as Christ was after His crucifixion.

Now Paul describes the order in which this will take place, starting with "Christ the firstfruits." Paul refers to Jesus this way since He was the first of the harvest of those who have died to be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:20). Sometime later, all those who belong to Christ will be resurrected at His coming or return to the earth (1 John 3:2). Jesus promised to return for His people in John 14:2–3. Paul shows that the fulfillment of that promise will include the physical resurrection from the dead of all who belong to Him (1 Corinthians 15:51)

Daniel 12:13


Again if you receive Jesus you will have eternal life ---if you don't receive Jesus you will go to everlasting contempt----so you will be raised and will go to the place you have chosen -----
you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Daniel 12 NIV​

The End Times​

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

13
“As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”



John 6:40

Again for believers only here ---unbelievers are not mentioned --so not all are raised up together in any of theses Scriptures you quote -----

John 6:40 NIV​

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:39,44,54

Believers only here ---not unbelievers --so not all are raised here

John 6:39 NIV

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say -----Believers only here in Verses 44-to 47 ---no unbelievers included here

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say ------and your last scripture verse 54 is the same speaking about beliebers not unbelievers ---so not all are raised up here ---


51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

I say ------------So anyone who has not received Jesus is not be included in any of these Scriptures -----so not all people are raised up together in these pieces of scripture --

The Church age which we are now in -----all True Christians will be Raptured before the 7 year Tribulation starts ----there will be no believers here on earth when the Rapture happens the unbelievers who are left here to go through the tribulation many will Receive Jesus Christ in their hearts during the Tribulation and become Saints so all these scriptures you quote here are to do with the end times and all the Saints who are murdered or killed during the 7 year tribulation will be raised up on the last day and remain here to inhabit the New Earth -----then the unbelievers will be raised and they will be sent to hell ------this is the
separation of the Sheeps and the Goats -----at the end of the tribulation

So if Waterfall is a Born Again Christian you will be Raptured with all the Saints of this Church Age and be caught up with Jesus in the air and escape the Horror that is coming upon this earth -----------if your not Born Again then you will remain here to go through the tribulation ---and if you were to be Saved during the Tribulation you will have eternal life in the new Earth -
 
@Mystic
Your explanation reminds me of the parallel universe in science fiction.
and God creating everything could be similar to the Simulation Hypothesis

Since laws can't come from nothing so there is the Brute Fact that all people, wether they are Goddessbotherers or nog, have to deal with
 
Well Jerusalem is going to descend from heaven according to Revelation 21: 2
and i like that image
totally Roger Dean album cover cool :3
or.like this classic

then again, i'm of the interpretation of Heaven is all around us, we just can't see it

(similar to how apparently the Celts believed in their otherworld, not as somewhere seperate from us but all around us)
 
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
Agreeing with @unsafe that this seems to apply to Christians only.
Reading on in this chapter gives us dead Christians going to be with God first followed by those who are still living. Both groups will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
So this is the Rapture before the tribulation.

1 Corinthians 15-23

Do you mean 1 Corinthians 15:20-23?
V.22 says that all will be made alive in Christ. However, v.23 talks about those who belong to Christ.

Daniel 12:13
Daniel 12 convinces me that the author of Revelation used Daniel extensively. @unsafe and others will probably argue that it all came to him in a vision.


John 6:40
Eternal life is promised to those who believe in the Son. So this is not an argument for universalism.


John 6:39,44,54
Again Jesus is talking about believers having eternal life. Jesus says He will raise them up on the last day.
 
@unsafe
I am really struggling to understand this.
So I take it the Rapture happens and all believers dead and alive go up to the clouds to be with Jesus.

Please clarify. Does this mean Heaven?

The people left on earth experience a 7 year tribulation but still have the opportunity to repent.

Then what? This is where it gets fuzzy for me. Does the 1000 year Messianic Age begin now? Is it located in Heaven or on earth?
 
Thanks very much for engaging with scripture like this @Waterfall and @unsafe.

I am really interested in figuring out what the Bible actually says about all these things.
 
One wonders if PTSD is an underlying factor in Revelation's writing assuming that, as sometimes alleged, it was written during a persecution.

Imagine that ... and someone will declare it is all in your head man ... a dark abstract going round and round as a dervish ...

As a simulation of rapturous goings on that must end in climactic blasts? Could de muse the Gods as a grand Muse Trap ... cosmological loupae ... a warp?

No, no, no ... let us not go through it ...
 
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Does anyone know if the order of the rapture and the tribulation is reversed elsewhere in the Bible? I was reading that some people think the tribulation comes first followed by the rapture.

Is the tribulation the same thing as End Times? Or are they separate concepts?
 
Deleted - I actually don’t want to get into this topic. Revelation is a ptsd fever dream. I’m not mocking that - it happens. Not saying there’s no truth reflected in it either. Just saying it’s not surprising, or shouldn’t be - for someone in prison, starving, fleeing persecution and probably not sleeping for days - to have a “bad trip” that’s relevant to very present fears.
 
The end is just another portal ... allowing for camels, mules, etc. It is a tight spot that can erupt during instability ... instability can occur anywhere given the extend of madness, etc. Look at the justice system ... isn't it crazy? I'm told only a judge can determine insanity ...
 
Deleted - I actually don’t want to get into this topic. Revelation is a ptsd fever dream. I’m not mocking that - it happens. Not saying there’s no truth reflected in it either. Just saying it’s not surprising, or shouldn’t be - for someone in prison, starving, fleeing persecution and probably not sleeping for days - to have a “bad trip” that’s relevant to very present fears.
This is a great contribution to the thread Kimmio. Please feel free to stick around.

These BPoTW threads get intense sometimes & we will understand if you have your hands full with the MAID conversation
 
This is a great contribution to the thread Kimmio. Please feel free to stick around.

These BPoTW threads get intense sometimes & we will understand if you have your hands full with the MAID conversation
I feel like if it wasn’t placed at the end of the bible the world might be a different place and already on a different trajectory to be honest. It was some men who decided it had to be placed at the end and plenty of unholy wars have ensued because of that. We’re supposed to be a light in a dark world not making it darker.
 
I feel like if it wasn’t placed at the end of the bible the world might be a different place and already on a different trajectory to be honest. It was some men who decided it had to be placed at the end and plenty of unholy wars have ensued because of that. We’re supposed to be a light in a dark world not making it darker.
But…I digress. I don’t have much else to add regarding the details of the text. It’s gory. I never felt ok about the allegorical flesh eating and blood drinking aspects of Christianity so there’s that too. It’s pretty weird. I feel sorry for Jesus’ execution, not gleeful and joyous that he went through that. I hate violence. I can’t pretend it’s not violent to celebrate blood and guts. I don’t know…there may be some reverse psychology/ theology there. I know there’s a passage where Jesus chides the disciples for being put off by the flesh and blood comments he made. If I was there I’d be bold and ask why that’s necessary if loving God, and neighbour, are the priorities.
 
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It does allow for a return and thus the Genesis population as Generation Z's ... resting until the conflict blows over?

Jack and the R.I.P. air as a alien wave ... weather related or not scares the gobs out of something or other ... face it you're going to get blown away regardless of whether you see something coming or not! It is a great beef getting jerked out of reality ...
 
But…I digress. I don’t have much else to add regarding the details of the text. It’s gory. I never felt ok about the allegorical flesh eating and blood drinking aspects of Christianity so there’s that too. It’s pretty weird. I feel sorry for Jesus’ execution, not gleeful and joyous that he went through that. I hate violence. I can’t pretend it’s not. i don’t know…there may be some reverse psychology/ theology there.
Revelation talks about the Lamb quite often. Jesus was first called the Lamb of God in John's Gospel. The synoptics do not mention this at all.

I hear you on the flesh eating and blood drinking aspects of Christian theology. Many people in our denomination would agree with you.

I don't mind it myself but I hold a universalist view of salvation. Liturgy these days often uses "bread of life" and "cup of blessing" language. I don't see much point to this. If we can't endorse the traditional language why have communion at all? I would toss it.
 
Revelation talks about the Lamb quite often. Jesus was first called the Lamb of God in John's Gospel. The synoptics do not mention this at all.

I hear you on the flesh eating and blood drinking aspects of Christian theology. Many people in our denomination would agree with you.

I don't mind it myself but I hold a universalist view of salvation. Liturgy these days often uses "bread of life" and "cup of blessing" language. I don't see much point to this. If we can't endorse the traditional language why have communion at all? I would toss it.

Bloody bread sops are enough to scare the crap out of those only fed gruel!
 
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