Making All Things New: (Revelation 21: 1-8)

[Waterfall]

Revelation embellishes what Jesus himself had to say about end times and the arrival of the Son of Man.

Maybe about some things but he didn't believe in eternal torment in Hell and he believed in an eternal bodily life on earth not an eternal soul life in heaven.

 

[Waterfall]

Maybe about some things but he didn't believe in eternal torment in Hell and he believed in an eternal bodily life on earth not an eternal soul life in heaven.

This will explain what I said above and it's "good news"

What Jesus Really Said About Heaven and Hell

Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.

time.com

 

[unsafe]

This will explain what I said above and it's "good news"

Not BART D. EHRMAN again ------OH NO ------Not That !

We are getting of topic here ---sorry paradox3 ---but just need to post this in response to Waterfalls Posting the article from Ehrman ----

We can all post articles that say what we want to believe but the other person can post an article that refutes it -----so it is becomes fruitless ------ you will still believe what you want to believe weather it is refutes or not ----pointless ----

Bart Ehrman is Dead Wrong

Background In a recent conversation with my mom, she revealed that she had been reading Bart Ehrman’s book “Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife.” She praised Ehrman for hi…

trulygod.wordpress.com

Bart Ehrman is Dead Wrong​

Posted on August 14, 2021 by Patrick Frost

Back to Revelations -----

 

[Mendalla]

Ehrmann has his flaws and biases. So do those critising him. One of the things with religion and faith is that there are no testable, falsifiable hypotheses like in science, just opinions with varying degrees of support from texts, history, archaeology, etc. A major difference between Ehrmann and his critics is that he actually acknowledges that.

 

[paradox3]

I read one of Ehrman's earlier books recently. He argued strongly that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher above all else.

Funny thing is I had already reached that conclusion myself by reading the Gospels and discussing them here.

Albert Schweitzer thought the same apparently.

The Bart Ehrman phenomenon reminds me a lot of the John Spong trajectory. I see Ehrman's arguments having more depth but it is really the same deconstruction all over again.

 

[Mystic]

I've often wondered if earth is paradise, where we are refined before heaven. Another chance to make it to heaven and learn and Jesus reminding us what it will take for that journey to get there.
Total speculation....but it does make me wonder what the seven heavens are.
Paul was caught in the third heaven, but there is mention of seven heavens. Anyone?

We should think of a multiplicity of heavens at various states of higher vibration. Paul's location of Paradise in the 3rd heaven, a standard Jewish belief in his day, raises the question of the first 2 heavens and heavens beyond the 3rd. Intertestamental Judaism portrays the first 2 heavens as realms for the unworthy. Paradise, which means "park" or "garden," is the preferred initial destination of the righteous. How many more heavens are there? Ancient Jewish beliefs
variously peg the number at 3, 5, or 7.

Do we progress through the heavens? Consider his literal translation of John 14:2-3:

"In my Father's house are many way stations or inns (Greek: "oikia")... I go ro prepare a place for you. And if I go and preoare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

Origen (early 200s AD) construes this to mean that we progress up through the way station heavens towards ever more intimate oneness with God.
Jesus' promise that the disciples will be together in a newly created temporary place holds out the hope that we might be together with our loved ones in a newly created place designed for us.

 

[Waterfall]

Not BART D. EHRMAN again ------OH NO ------Not That !

We are getting of topic here ---sorry paradox3 ---but just need to post this in response to Waterfalls Posting the article from Ehrman ----

We can all post articles that say what we want to believe but the other person can post an article that refutes it -----so it is becomes fruitless ------ you will still believe what you want to believe weather it is refutes or not ----pointless ----

Bart Ehrman is Dead Wrong

Background In a recent conversation with my mom, she revealed that she had been reading Bart Ehrman’s book “Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife.” She praised Ehrman for hi…

trulygod.wordpress.com

Bart Ehrman is Dead Wrong​

Posted on August 14, 2021 by Patrick Frost

Back to Revelations -----

I find it hard to believe the person you posted to critique the information actually read his book ....because the argument you provided seems to demonstrate that. One eg is, Bart stated Jesus never used the word hell he used gehenna, even though the KING James version says hell for all 4 descriptions of hell as stated up thread.

 

[paradox3]

Back to Ehrman and Spong. I see a similar embrace of both authors by popular culture and liberal Christianity.

They offer some intriguing new ideas and encourage us to read the bible critically.

This is all good but sometimes we forget these authors should also be read with a critical eye.

Neither Spong nor Ehrman was ever endorsed by evangelical Christianity.

 

[Waterfall]

I read one of Ehrman's earlier books recently. He argued strongly that Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher above all else.

Funny thing is I had already reached that conclusion myself by reading the Gospels and discussing them here.

Albert Schweitzer thought the same apparently.

The Bart Ehrman phenomenon reminds me a lot of the John Spong trajectory. I see Ehrman's arguments having more depth but it is really the same deconstruction all over again.

I see him more as a historian, and for me history and archeology are good additions to learning the bible.

 

[Waterfall]

Back to Ehrman and Spong. I see a similar embrace of both authors by popular culture and liberal Christianity.

They offer some intriguing new ideas and encourage us to read the bible critically.

This is all good but sometimes we forget these authors should also be read with a critical eye.

Neither Spong nor Ehrman was ever endorsed by evangelical Christianity.

Well it's easy enough to discredit by checking the bible, just depends which bible we're looking at.

 

[Mystic]

I don't know about the 7 heavens. Did I read somewhere that souls ascend through the 7 heavens?

The three heavens reflect the NT period's understanding of the universe. The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere. I think there is even a determined distance it extends.
The second is the stars and planets.
The third is the dwelling place of God i.e. ruling over it all.

Nope. There is one Jewish example of that view and more examples from Paul's era of the view that the first 2 heavens are spiritual realms inhabited by souls. Similarly, various views of the number of heavens.

 

[Mendalla]

history and archeology are good absolutely vital additions to learning the bible

I would agree but go further. See above. With no way to actually test the assertions in the Bible, the historical method of trying to relate what is in the Bible to what we learn through othe sources is a necessity.

For instance, we have archaeological evidence, and evidence from the records of neighbouring cultures, for the existence of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. "Israel" appears in an Egyptian inscription at least once and we have Assyrian records that record their side of the fall of the kingdom of Israel, which parallel the accounts in The Bible while putting a distinctly Assyrian spin on things. So we can say with reasonable certainty that the Israel and Judah existed and at least some bits of their history matches what is in The Bible.

 

[paradox3]

Nope. There is one Jewish example of that view and more examples from Paul's era of the view that the first 2 heavens are spiritual realms inhabited by souls. Similarly, various views of the number of heavens.

Would you not agree that first century Christians believed the realm of heaven to be located in the sky?

 

[Waterfall]

Nope. There is one Jewish example of that view and more examples from Paul's era of the view that the first 2 heavens are spiritual realms inhabited by souls. Similarly, various views of the number of heavens.

Do you think Paul was influenced by a Greek understanding while converting the gentiles?

 

[Mystic]

Would you not agree that first century Christians believed the realm of heaven to be located in the sky?

"The kingdom of God does not come with signs that can be observed; nor will they be able to say, "Look, here it is!" or "There!" For the kingdom of God is [already] in your midst (as a spiritual dimension) (Luke 17:30-21)."

 

[paradox3]

"The kingdom of God does not come with signs that can be observed; nor will they be able to say, "Look, here it is!" or "There!" For the kingdom of God is [already] in your midst (as a spiritual dimension) (Luke 17:30-21)."

A spiritual dimension appeals to me. As does a metaphorical interpretation of God's dwelling place. The problem I have is that God in the sky is a prevalent view in the bible

 

[paradox3]

Do you think Paul was influenced by a Greek understanding while converting the gentiles?

We studied Greek and Roman mythology in high school. I sure wish I had paid more attention

 

[Mendalla]

Do you think Paul was influenced by a Greek understanding while converting the gentiles?

The Greek afterlife was not in the sky, though. The Greek afterlife was an underworld. Even the Elysian Fields where the blessed dead went (the closest thing to Heaven in Greek mythology/religion) were down below in the realm of the god Hades. The sky was the exclusive realm of the gods, at least certain of them.

That said, the idea of a separate, immortal spirit being contained in a mortal, temporary material body and then released at death is very Greek. As is the idea that the mortal body is corrupt and relatively unimportant compared to that immortal spirit. In fact, some Greek schools of thought went to reincarnation, with the immortal soul returning to a new material body after a sojourn in Hades. This seems to date back to Pythagoras though is most developed in Plato and later. Virgil used it quite effectively as a literary device in The Aeneid. Book 6, where Aeneas visits the underworld, presents a pageant of souls on their way back to begin new lives.

 

[Waterfall]

The Greek afterlife was not in the sky, though. The Greek afterlife was an underworld. Even the Elysian Fields where the blessed dead went (the closest thing to Heaven in Greek mythology/religion) were down below in the realm of the god Hades. The sky was the exclusive realm of the gods, at least certain of them.

That said, the idea of a separate, immortal spirit being contained in a mortal, temporary material body and then released at death is very Greek. As is the idea that the mortal body is corrupt and relatively unimportant compared to that immortal spirit. In fact, some Greek schools of thought went to reincarnation, with the immortal soul returning to a new material body after a sojourn in Hades. This seems to date back to Pythagoras though is most developed in Plato and later. Virgil used it quite effectively as a literary device in The Aeneid. Book 6, where Aeneas visits the underworld, presents a pageant of souls on their way back to begin new lives.

I can see why there's some wars over religion...imagine if everything was more straight forward in the bible?

 

[Waterfall]

The Greek afterlife was not in the sky, though. The Greek afterlife was an underworld. Even the Elysian Fields where the blessed dead went (the closest thing to Heaven in Greek mythology/religion) were down below in the realm of the god Hades. The sky was the exclusive realm of the gods, at least certain of them.

That said, the idea of a separate, immortal spirit being contained in a mortal, temporary material body and then released at death is very Greek. As is the idea that the mortal body is corrupt and relatively unimportant compared to that immortal spirit. In fact, some Greek schools of thought went to reincarnation, with the immortal soul returning to a new material body after a sojourn in Hades. This seems to date back to Pythagoras though is most developed in Plato and later. Virgil used it quite effectively as a literary device in The Aeneid. Book 6, where Aeneas visits the underworld, presents a pageant of souls on their way back to begin new lives.

I was thinking it was the Greeks that said it was the soul that goes to heaven and then 1 Corinthians says the body and soul dies but the spirit goes to God.
It's all over the place.....