Luke 6: A Verse (or Two) at a Time
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With a night prior, one can freshly determine the difference between Jove and the Jew'ven ... Ouranos is way beyond that as the donkeys lead ... jive'n along!
A little dark rest assists ... try a Σ, or ς as sigma ... succumbed ... then there is the Zen as zeta #! It indicates something beyond out control ... djinn ethics ... for those inexperienced in the cup 'r grail ... and the need for coopers! As the man said be ware of the man in the hard robes ... black' mith Oz? perhaps due to that split lip ... har 'd ... to the har 'T! Resembling Ahab in his bothers ... (sorry for the dangling participle) in the front end! Lead belly or lead R's ...
I believe it was lead belly that started some of those blown songs .... munch fore gotten! Ova chewed chaw'd ... meis hoe got ah ole innut ... MS ewe?
A little dark rest assists ... try a Σ, or ς as sigma ... succumbed ... then there is the Zen as zeta #! It indicates something beyond out control ... djinn ethics ... for those inexperienced in the cup 'r grail ... and the need for coopers! As the man said be ware of the man in the hard robes ... black' mith Oz? perhaps due to that split lip ... har 'd ... to the har 'T! Resembling Ahab in his bothers ... (sorry for the dangling participle) in the front end! Lead belly or lead R's ...
I believe it was lead belly that started some of those blown songs .... munch fore gotten! Ova chewed chaw'd ... meis hoe got ah ole innut ... MS ewe?
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Mendalla
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I wonder if it has much to do with the Pharisees or is more about praying about who to include in The Twelve. And I also wonder if the incident made him more aware that he can't "go it alone" and that he needs someone to carry on the mission if something happens to him. Not so much "bodyguards" as continuity planning (to use the business term).
paradox3
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Praying about who to include in the Twelve is the traditional interpretation of these verses. I like your reflection on the incident with the Pharisees.
I still wonder about the effect of their opposition on Jesus. Has it made him uncomfortable or is it par for the course, so to speak?
BetteTheRed
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I can't imagine praying all night without falling asleep.
Mendalla
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Ditto, but I have heard of religious types doing it on vigils so I guess with the right person and mindset, it can happen.
Delightful Life
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I remember those all-nighters dungeon delving...couldn't imagine doing that with tiddly winks or singing or ker-plunk!
paradox3
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Same. I wouldn't even want to try it.
Mendalla
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OTOH, if nasty people are threatening you and you are trying to figure out who should carry on your legacy if/when they take you out, an all-night prayer session doesn't seem out of line. I'd find it hard to sleep anyhow.
My gaming group very rarely went literally "all night" but when I wasn't getting home until 2am or later, it sometimes felt like an all-nighter (says the early to bed, early to rise ape).
paradox3
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When morning arrived (finally!!!) Jesus called all the disciples and chose twelve of them. It seems that a large group of his followers went up the mountain. They will all be coming down to a level place shortly so they must have climbed up there.
This has me wondering if I have been misreading certain texts. How are we to know if "disciples" means a generic group of followers or specifically the Twelve? As we read through the Gospels, I mean.
How many individuals would have been in that wheat field, for example?
At any rate Luke is being a tad inconsistent in his storytelling. He previously recounted that Peter, John and James were called by Jesus (Luke 5: 1-11) when they were fishing. They left everything and followed him.
Levi the tax collector was called separately (Luke 5: 27-28). His response was to host a big banquet in his house for Jesus.
This has me wondering if I have been misreading certain texts. How are we to know if "disciples" means a generic group of followers or specifically the Twelve? As we read through the Gospels, I mean.
How many individuals would have been in that wheat field, for example?
At any rate Luke is being a tad inconsistent in his storytelling. He previously recounted that Peter, John and James were called by Jesus (Luke 5: 1-11) when they were fishing. They left everything and followed him.
Levi the tax collector was called separately (Luke 5: 27-28). His response was to host a big banquet in his house for Jesus.
Paul teaches that effective "prayer in the Spirit" depends on our willingness to "persevere" over extended periods in a high state of "alertness (Eph. 5:18)." If we pray at all, we typically stop praying after a minute or so. But Paul instructs us, "Pray without stopping (1 Thess. 5:17)." Jesus' all-night prayer vigil is typical of His frequent wilderness and mountain for long prayer vigils in which His disciples do not take part (Luke 5:16; 6:12; Mark 6:45-46; John 6:15). Jesus tells the disciples that the reason their prayers couldn't heal the epileptic boy is because they don't spend enough time in prayer (Mark 8:28-29).
Could it be that the major reason we have problems with petitionary prayer is that we don't recognize the principle that length of prayer vigils is a key to effective petitionary prayer? The few times I have been disciplined enough to spend hours in prayer and fasting the results were impression and the vigils brought me into a profoundly intimate connection with God. Consider the instructive case of Rev. Hart.
No church in Winnipeg would host Rev. Hart. That forced him to hold his meetings in Lighthouse Mission, a place of worship that homeless men and alcoholics had to attend to get a free meal across the street. At age 16 I preached my first sermon there. I was inspired by the huge crowd of about 200 men. But God has a sense of humor. What they didn't tell me is that the men were required to stay only for the songs and prayers to get their meal. They could skip the sermon! So I included a rousing song service and prayed. But as I got up to read my text and preach, all but about 10 men walked out. I was crushed!
When my parents and younger brother attended Rev. Hart's meeting there years later, I (age 23) was now a student at Princeton Seminary in New Jersey. After preaching, Rev. Hart began using "the word of knowledge" to minister healing. He picked my mother out of the crowd and said, "Sister, you are suffering from calcium deposits in your shoulder." This was true. He then said, "The Lord has healed your calcium deposits and removed your pain!" This proved to be correct! Then he picked my brother out of the crowd and said, "Son, you have a kidney problem." My brother was in med school at the time and was about to deny this when Rev. Hart added, "The symptom of your problem is a stabling pain in the small of your back!" This was true. Then he added, "The Lord has just healed you!" My brother's back pain instantly vanished!
Then Rev. Hart said something fascinating that I still ponder decades later: "This is my last meeting. I have to spend so many hours in prayer to keep my gift active, but those prayer vigils take too much out of me; so I need to discontinue them." This comment raised several questions for me: Could I exercise my "word of knowledge" gift in combination with healing, if I spent hours a day in prayer? Rev. Hart's ministry seemed more impressive than that of big-name faith healers whose meetings I attended. Was his greater effectiveness due to his long prayer vigils, vigils these other healers were unwilling to undertake? Why didn't Rev. Hart receive invitations from local larger Pentecostal churches? Why didn't his effectiveness give him a widespread reputation that drew large crowed like the big-name faith healers? In my experience, the most impressive supernatural manifestations I have witnessed have happened in the least impressive venues.
My mother told me about our family's encounter with Rev. Hart when I came home to Canada for Christmas. But she added a detail that made me feel very uneasy. After Rev. Hart's meeting, she followed him to his car. He turned and said to her: "You're worried about your son back in the USA, aren't you? You think he's getting too liberal!" I gulped as I feared what my Mom would say next! Rev. Hart paused as if listening for the Holy Spirit's word about me. Then he smiled and said, "Well, he's not; he'll be OK; so don't worry about him." I breathed a sigh of relief! But later during my Christmas visit, I said something insignificant that prompted Mom to say, "See, I told you that you were getting too liberal!" I replied, "But Mom, you just received a prophetic word from Rev. Hart that I was not too liberal and that I was OK!" An impish look crossed Mom's face as if I had nailed her. Her following comment is so dear to me that I highlighted it at her funeral over which I presided about 6 years ago. She smiled and snapped back, "Oh, what does he know?" I have shared my own experiences with the word of knowledge on this thread , but Rev. Hart's gift is the most impressive I've ever encountered. He had never met me or any of my family.
Could it be that the major reason we have problems with petitionary prayer is that we don't recognize the principle that length of prayer vigils is a key to effective petitionary prayer? The few times I have been disciplined enough to spend hours in prayer and fasting the results were impression and the vigils brought me into a profoundly intimate connection with God. Consider the instructive case of Rev. Hart.
No church in Winnipeg would host Rev. Hart. That forced him to hold his meetings in Lighthouse Mission, a place of worship that homeless men and alcoholics had to attend to get a free meal across the street. At age 16 I preached my first sermon there. I was inspired by the huge crowd of about 200 men. But God has a sense of humor. What they didn't tell me is that the men were required to stay only for the songs and prayers to get their meal. They could skip the sermon! So I included a rousing song service and prayed. But as I got up to read my text and preach, all but about 10 men walked out. I was crushed!
When my parents and younger brother attended Rev. Hart's meeting there years later, I (age 23) was now a student at Princeton Seminary in New Jersey. After preaching, Rev. Hart began using "the word of knowledge" to minister healing. He picked my mother out of the crowd and said, "Sister, you are suffering from calcium deposits in your shoulder." This was true. He then said, "The Lord has healed your calcium deposits and removed your pain!" This proved to be correct! Then he picked my brother out of the crowd and said, "Son, you have a kidney problem." My brother was in med school at the time and was about to deny this when Rev. Hart added, "The symptom of your problem is a stabling pain in the small of your back!" This was true. Then he added, "The Lord has just healed you!" My brother's back pain instantly vanished!
Then Rev. Hart said something fascinating that I still ponder decades later: "This is my last meeting. I have to spend so many hours in prayer to keep my gift active, but those prayer vigils take too much out of me; so I need to discontinue them." This comment raised several questions for me: Could I exercise my "word of knowledge" gift in combination with healing, if I spent hours a day in prayer? Rev. Hart's ministry seemed more impressive than that of big-name faith healers whose meetings I attended. Was his greater effectiveness due to his long prayer vigils, vigils these other healers were unwilling to undertake? Why didn't Rev. Hart receive invitations from local larger Pentecostal churches? Why didn't his effectiveness give him a widespread reputation that drew large crowed like the big-name faith healers? In my experience, the most impressive supernatural manifestations I have witnessed have happened in the least impressive venues.
My mother told me about our family's encounter with Rev. Hart when I came home to Canada for Christmas. But she added a detail that made me feel very uneasy. After Rev. Hart's meeting, she followed him to his car. He turned and said to her: "You're worried about your son back in the USA, aren't you? You think he's getting too liberal!" I gulped as I feared what my Mom would say next! Rev. Hart paused as if listening for the Holy Spirit's word about me. Then he smiled and said, "Well, he's not; he'll be OK; so don't worry about him." I breathed a sigh of relief! But later during my Christmas visit, I said something insignificant that prompted Mom to say, "See, I told you that you were getting too liberal!" I replied, "But Mom, you just received a prophetic word from Rev. Hart that I was not too liberal and that I was OK!" An impish look crossed Mom's face as if I had nailed her. Her following comment is so dear to me that I highlighted it at her funeral over which I presided about 6 years ago. She smiled and snapped back, "Oh, what does he know?" I have shared my own experiences with the word of knowledge on this thread , but Rev. Hart's gift is the most impressive I've ever encountered. He had never met me or any of my family.
Most Christians pray briefly as if God just needs us to express our need and forget that Jesus said, "Your Father knows what you need before you ask Him (Matthew 6:8)." But the effectiveness of prayer is a function of the quality of our connection with God and it can take a long time to develop and experience that intimate connection. Also, prayer is the primary way of experiencing the give and take of our personal relationship with God. Clearly Jesus considered His frequent long prayer vigils essential to the effectiveness of His healing ministry. Thus, Rev. Hart learned the hard way that when he discontinued his long prayer vigils, he lost his use of the clairvoyant "word of knowledge" gift to correctly diagnose his audience and meditate healing miracles ot them. My family was deeply blessed by the healings he mediated to them and I was blessed by his clairvoyant message about me, even though he had never met me and had no idea my mother had a son in the USA.
paradox3
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Depriving ourselves of food and sleep for long periods of time is like playing with fire if you ask me.
Yes, it can produce altered states of consciousness as you attest. But it can also produce hallucinations. And it can trigger a manic episode for anyone with bipolar disorder.
Yes, it can produce altered states of consciousness as you attest. But it can also produce hallucinations. And it can trigger a manic episode for anyone with bipolar disorder.
Your comment is merely an excuse to shun Jesus' example and Paul's teaching. It also illustrates famed author G. K. Chesterton's famous quote: “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”
Mendalla
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Um, no. Fasting and extended periods of sleeplessness are definitely medically harmful regardless of what Jesus and Paul think. Healthy people and people experienced with them can certainly do them safely which is why they are a part of almost every religious tradition. However, as P3 suggests, some health conditions, both mental and physical, mean these practices are definitely not for everyone and can be a safety issue for some. Even in Islam, people with certain medical conditions are exempted from the Ramadan fast. Consult your doctor before engaging as they say.
paradox3
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Good thing we don't judge each other around here.
Do we know what Chesterton meant by "the Christian ideal"? Did he ever provide an explanation?
Mendalla
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IIRC, it's more about loving your neighbour and such than practices like fasting and sleep deprivation but it has been a while and I'd need to hunt up it up to be sure.
paradox3
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That's what I assumed when I heard the quote on another occasion.