Informative Article on God's Unconditional and Conditional Love ------

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Ritafee

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what did Jesus believe and say on the topic?
History has clearly shown that worship of Jesus invariably becomes a time-and culture-bound religion, often ethnic or even implicitly racist, which excludes much of humanity from 'God’s' embrace….

Any 'God' worthy of the name must transcend creeds and denominations, time and place, nations and ethnicities, and all the vagaries of gender, extending to the limits of all we can see, suffer, and enjoy.

Jesus was sacrificed for what 'it is believed' Jesus said on any topic.

I am thinking the key to understanding the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross is to recognize that it was not 'God' who demanded or required the death of Jesus; it was humans being.

Jesus did not die to please or appease 'God'.

Jesus was sacrificed to please and appease man-kind.

Humans being called for the blood of Jesus; not God being.

'God' unconditioned doesn’t need or demand payment for sin.

Restorative Justice - that is the universalal vocational calling 'In Christ'.
 
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Waterfall

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No, it's not only the judgments of some Christians that cause this.

They do that because it's in the damn bible.

You act like it's not there. It really, really is. You are trying to disassociate yourself from blackbelt and unsafe, while also disagreeing with me. You are in a bit of a pickle.
Yup, it's in the Bible, but that doesn't prevent it from being a "problem".

The Problem of Hell

 

blackbelt1961

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History has clearly shown that worship of Jesus invariably becomes a time-and culture-bound religion, often ethnic or even implicitly racist, which excludes much of humanity from 'God’s' embrace….
History also shows spiritual Christians freed from religious rule by the power of the Spirit

Any 'God' worthy of the name must transcend creeds and denominations, time and place, nations and ethnicities, and all the vagaries of gender, extending to the limits of all we can see, suffer, and enjoy.
agreed, yet we don't worship "any " God but the God of Abraham who was called Father by His Son. That is the God I wish to know and relate with

Jesus was sacrificed for what 'it is believed' Jesus said on any topic.

I am thinking the key to understanding the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross is to recognize that it was not 'God' who demanded or required the death of Jesus; it was humans being.
you would be correct, that is your Thinking,


Jesus did not die to please or appease 'God'.

Jesus was sacrificed to please and appease man-kind.

Humans being called for the blood of Jesus; not God being.

'God' unconditioned doesn’t need or demand payment for sin.

Restorative Justice - that is the universalal vocational calling 'In Christ'.
I do not share your view,

attributes of God people have issues, with, Love & Justice, How does a perfect Creator ballance Love & Justice without violating the perfection of any of his attributes.

Even in restorative Justice, offenders are held responsible. where is yours or my responsibility in light of the violation of the Laws of relationship The Creator has laid down for humanity?

which is why God is Glorious
 

unsafe

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Ritafee ------Your Quoting Richard Rohr again ------what you have quoted above is ---from his book ----you should really quote the name of who you are quoting -----

Universal Christ: How a Forgotten Reality Can Change Everything We See, Hope ...
By Richard Rohr

https://books.google.ca › books
Richard Rohr - 2019 - ‎Religion
History has clearly shown that worship of Jesus without worship of Christ invariably becomes a time- and culture-bound religion, often ethnic or even implicitly racist, which excludes much of humanity from God's embrace. I fully believe ...



 

blackbelt1961

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Ritafee ------Your Quoting Richard Rohr again ------what you have quoted above is ---from his book ----you should really quote the name of who you are quoting -----

Universal Christ: How a Forgotten Reality Can Change Everything We See, Hope ...
By Richard Rohr

https://books.google.ca › books
Richard Rohr - 2019 - ‎Religion
History has clearly shown that worship of Jesus without worship of Christ invariably becomes a time- and culture-bound religion, often ethnic or even implicitly racist, which excludes much of humanity from God's embrace. I fully believe ...



all that quote proves is that they don't have too much Trust in the Spirit of Jesus, those that do and have Trusted the Spirit, contradicts, Rohr views
 

blackbelt1961

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Do you have documentation for this? If not, then technically it isn't history.
apart from my own personal testimony freed in the Spirit, you can use google, million of testimonies worldwide from all walks of life, from the rich to the very poor to those in various religions or the occult.
 

GeoFee

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Hi,

"...here I disagree with your broad sweep of the use of the word Christian, not all are users or have other ulterior motives..." blackbelt

Disagreement offers opportunity for conversation. So I will respond to your observation above. The matter is complex but I will try to stick to some key points. These can be expanded if you have questions.

First I would like to notice baptism. For me it symbolizes death to the way of the world and resurrection to the way of God. A putting off of one way and the putting on of another. Jesus is baptized at the Jordon river. He comes to the water as a full blooded Jew and a person of his time. He was a human being just as we are human beings. He rises from the water as the son of God. For me this is a matter of dying to Old Adam and rising as New Adam. Paul goes on about this in one of his letters. A key point is the temptation in the wilderness. Jesus rejects all three offers of worldly privilege and power. Where Adam and Eve said yes, Jesus says no.

As a follower of Jesus I am constantly saying no to the power of religion and politics in our world. I do so by faith alone. I am not justified by any doctrine, creed or teaching. Just like Abraham I stepped out of the world into which I was born and began my journey of discovery by the light of God's spirit. Saying no to religion and politics I am not saying no to those who live by faith within these social structures. I take it that each of us who lives by faith is a member of Christ's body. Further, each has a distinct calling and function within that body. As you notice, God will pour out the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ will begin to show forth signs and symbols of a collapsing world order. This as the consequence of its decisions made independent of God's Holy Spirit. It is not God punishing those lost in the dark.

History makes it plain that Christianity has been responsible for much evil from its conception. In all times and places Christian dogma has animated persons to murder and pillage strangers met along the way. We may think of Indigenous people of the planet subjected to European imperialism blessed by the proponents of Christianity. We may also think of the natural world. Humanity is part of nature. Harming the water and air we harm our bodies. Saying such things I am well aware that Christianity in all of its manifestations has blessed the rise of an exploitive and oppressive capitalist agenda.

Jesus, after his baptism went about including those excluded by religion and politics. Doing so he angered those loyal to agenda of power at work in Jerusalem and Rome. The disciples were told that if they were to follow in this way, they to would encounter the hostility of priests and politicians. This because the Holy Spirit exposes the corruption of greed and avarice at work in those who serve themselves in the name of God. Jesus serves others in the name of God. This is the way opening to the realization of spiritual life as the gift of God freely given to any and all. Those who receive it are liberated from the bondage of misused and abused power.

I'll leave it there for now. Let me know what you think.

George
 
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blackbelt1961

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BTY,

I do have a book, its not with
Hi,

"...here I disagree with your broad sweep of the use of the word Christian, not all are users or have other ulterior motives..." blackbelt

Disagreement offers opportunity for conversation. So I will respond to your observation above. The matter is complex but I will try to stick to some key points. These can be expanded if you have questions.

First I would like to notice baptism. For me it symbolizes death to the way of the world and resurrection to the way of God. A putting off of one way and the putting on of another. Jesus is baptized at the Jordon river. He comes to the water as a full blooded Jew and a person of his time. He was a human being just as we are human beings. He rises from the water as the son of God. For me this is a matter of dying to Old Adam and rising as New Adam. Paul goes on about this in one of his letters. A key point is the temptation in the wilderness. Jesus rejects all three offers of worldly privilege and power. Where Adam and Eve said yes, Jesus says no.

As a follower of Jesus I am constantly saying no to the power of religion and politics in our world. I do so by faith alone. I am not justified by any doctrine, creed or teaching. Just like Abraham I stepped out of the world into which I was born and began my journey of discovery by the light of God's spirit. Saying no to religion and politics I am not saying no to those who live by faith within these social structures. I take it that each of us who lives by faith is a member of Christ's body. Further, each has a distinct calling and function within that body. As you notice, God will pour out the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ will begin to show forth signs and symbols of a collapsing world order. This as the consequence of its decisions made independent of God's Holy Spirit. It is not God punishing the those lost in the dark.

History makes it plain that Christianity has been responsible for much evil from its conception. In all times and places Christian dogma has animated persons to murder and pillage strangers met along the way. We may think of Indigenous people of the planet subjected to European imperialism blessed by the proponents of Christianity. We may also think of the natural world. Humanity is part of nature. Harming the water and air we harm our bodies. Saying such things I am well aware that Christianity in all of its manifestations has blessed the rise of an exploitive and oppressive capitalist agenda.

Jesus, after his baptism went about including those excluded by religion and politics. Doing so he angered those loyal to agenda of power at work in Jerusalem and Rome. The disciples were told that if they were to follow in this way, they to would encounter the hostility of priests and politicians. This because the Holy Spirit exposes the corruption of greed and avarice at work in those who serve themselves in the name of God. Jesus serves others in the name of God. This is the way opening to the realization of spiritual life as the gift of God freely given to any and all. Those who receive it are liberated from the bondage of misused and abused power.

I'll leave it there for now. Let me know what you think.

George
George ,

I have no issues with what you posted other that you using the term "Christianity has been responsible for much evil ", so broadly.

yes it has, but its also been a source of Good and Grace and Truth and mercy, you seem to side with only one aspect of it. when you say 'Christianity" and that simply is not true.

what you have described above here are the Powers and Principalities that govern and work through humanity in this world, and yes they also work through religion and Christianity, why because its made up of humans. But as Much as the anti spirit is at work, let us not forget so is Gods Spirit in the world,


Geeorge, when I was Born again, yrs ago and had an encounter with God, I became very upset at the catholic church for all its religious control and rules and yes even its evil history, calling out the institution whenever I could, much like you now.
but one day God corrected me to my surprise, even in Catholicism, Jesus said they are my children, I died for them too.
 

GeoFee

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Hi,
yes it has, but its also been a source of Good and Grace and Truth and mercy, you seem to side with only one aspect of it. when you say 'Christianity" and that simply is not true.
Christianity, like Judaism, is a label. It has no power to do good. It is persons who make the goodness of God present in history. Among Christians there are persons who do good and persons who do evil. I respect and cooperate with the former and resist the latter.

Jesus did not present himself as a Christian but as a human being (son of man). Neither did Jesus come to establish a religious institution. That came a few hundred years later.

You and I are persons in the sight of God. We may disagree about religion and politics. Hopefully the love of God in each of us will allow us to cooperate in the expression of mercy, justice and humility.

George
 

blackbelt1961

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Jesus did not present himself as a Christian but as a human being (son of man). Neither did Jesus come to establish a religious institution. That came a few hundred years later.
correct, me as a Christian, I use the word to state that I am a follower of Christ, I understand its a label, I also understand your relationship vs religion.

You and I are persons in the sight of God. We may disagree about religion and politics. Hopefully the love of God in each of us will allow us to cooperate in the expression of mercy, justice and humility.

George
no argument there George
 

PilgrimsProgress

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You are both correct about what is in the bible. It is about loving thy neighbour, and it is also a manual for being a monumental dickhead. I suppose each Christian is attracted to the parts of the bible they identify with, but you can't say that what Blackbelt does is not biblical or not Christian. He just identifies with a different part of the manual.
Yes, I understand where you're coming from.......

The question is do you believe in the Bible or do you believe in God and Jesus? The Bible gives descriptions of both -from the perspective of those that wrote the Bible -but descriptions are loaded from the perspective of the writer.
You could write a book about your children - but the book is not your children.

My faith is centred on the understanding that Jesus entered the picture to say that many had lost their way in understanding God - there is just two commandments -love God and love neighbour.

My understanding could well be wrong, but my own life is both grounded and enriched by trying to live out these two commandments.

Imagine if others could share this way of life - no hunger, no wars -it's an ideal worth believing in, i.m.o.
 

PilgrimsProgress

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Im not saying this is you PilgrimsProgress, Im making the argument that hell according to Scripture & Jesus does exist, and if so, what then is going on? Does God really send people to hell or do we end up there by our own God-Given Free will?

personally I don't and never have worshiped a God who sends people to hell
We agree on this - I don't think God sends people to Hell.

I disagree that "we end up there by our own God-given free will".

Who (apart from sadists) would use their free will and choose to go to a Hell? (Just the odd taste of Hell here on Earth is more than enough for me!)
 

blackbelt1961

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We agree on this - I don't think God sends people to Hell.

I disagree that "we end up there by our own God-given free will".

Who (apart from sadists) would use their free will and choose to go to a Hell? (Just the odd taste of Hell here on Earth is more than enough for me!)
A sadist :)
 

PilgrimsProgress

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The only way to even start to understand God who is Love is by having God in us and spending a lot of time walking and talking to God in prayer and reading His word ----- the more Mature we become in our walk with Christ the more we see and understand His ways ------
Keep walking - methinks you have a long journey ahead of you. ......

That said, I'm sure it pleases God to know that you are on the journey. (My tip for speeding up the journey to spiritual maturity - is just try to focus on loving God and neighbour - and don't be side-tracked by the noises of conflict and violence coming from the undergrowth beside the path.)
 
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