Heaven and Hell

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crazyheart

crazyheart

Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
For those who don't believe in a place called "Hell" and that is a lot of church people, I know,

but they do believe in a place called "Heaven". This, too is a lot of church people that I know.

How can they believe in one and not the other?

Any discussion?
 
crazyheart said:
For those who don't believe in a place called "Hell" and that is a lot of church people, I know,

but they do believe in a place called "Heaven". This, too is a lot of church people that I know.

How can they believe in one and not the other?

Any discussion?
Click to expand...

Many liberal churches these days don't warn people about sin and the consequences thereof.
 
Even the Pope said that "Heaven" and "Hell" are not real places.

But, if one of them is a real place, then so should the other.


I sent my mind to the invisible,
A lesson of the afterlife to tell,
And it came back telling me,
That I myself am heaven and hell.

-Omar Khayyam
 
Pr. Jae said:
Many liberal churches these days don't warn people about sin and the consequences thereof.
Click to expand...
I think that if you recognize that positive reinforcement is an effective (and ethical) motivating force, and negative reinforcement often backfires and more often than not fails to achieve the desired effect, you might extend that to your personal beliefs and say that heaven exists and hell does not. You could try to justify that position by starting from the assumption that God is good and loves everyone, so therefore he would not torture people. Let's just forget about the biblical stories of God-directed genocide. *shhhh*

Further, heaven is a comforting thought (for some), and hell is a disturbing thought (for some), so it's a very easy step to take. And when there is no test to confirm or deny the existence of either, you can simply make up the answers as you go along and no one can prove you wrong. It's great.
 
chansen said:
I think that if you recognize that positive reinforcement is an effective (and ethical) motivating force, and negative reinforcement often backfires and more often than not fails to achieve the desired effect, you might extend that to your personal beliefs and say that heaven exists and hell does not. You could try to justify that position by starting from the assumption that God is good and loves everyone, so therefore he would not torture people. Let's just forget about the biblical stories of God-directed genocide. *shhhh*

Further, heaven is a comforting thought (for some), and hell is a disturbing thought (for some), so it's a very easy step to take. And when there is no test to confirm or deny the existence of either, you can simply make up the answers as you go along and no one can prove you wrong. It's great.
Click to expand...

Oh there is one test. Only thing is - you have to die to take it.
 
I can only speak for myself and what I believe, based on my understanding of God and the Bible.
I don't believe that there is a physical place called hell, nor a physical place called heaven.
I don't believe in hell, except the hell on earth that humankind has created and hell as the absence of what is good, right, pure, true.
I do believe that Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is near, at hand, and within. Jesus gave us many parables about the kingdom "The kingdom of God is like a woman who loses a coin ... " "Like a pearl of great price ..." "Like a shepherd who has lost a sheep ..." and my favourite "Like yeast in bread" or "a mustard seed".
I heard a modern day parable recently, "The kingdom is like a man who has lost his keys. Running late for an appointment he searches desperately. And then finds them in his pocket."
Yes, I believe in heaven - but not a physical place.
 
Scam artists talk in similar language about positive outcomes if you dedicate your life to selling what they're selling.

It isn't hard to sound extremely profound. Contradict yourself, for example. The bible is full of contradictions. Here's a newer one: "I would do anything for love, but I won't do that." I mean, Meatloaf sounds pretty deep in moments like that. And his name is Meatloaf.

People who talk a good game and sound profound are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.
 
Sure, it's my opinion. But is it not true that scam artists are some of the slickest talkers you've met?

Here's the thing: I'll side with the guy who is not nice but is making sense, over the guy who sounds and looks like a dream while telling me what I want to hear. Every time. I don't give a crap about tone of voice or how a person dresses or if my doctor has good "bedside manner". I care that what is being said makes sense and that the person communicating with me cares enough to tell me the truth. I care that what I write makes sense, because I give a damn about the people who read my words. I try very hard to do that, and I don't really care about my tone at all. I want to be clear and concise, and what I see, is a lot of people wishing people like me spoke and wrote more nicely.

Heaven is a nice part of Christianity. I shouldn't want to tear it down.

Ummmm.....no. Talking or writing in sing-song parables about heaven that are mysterious and profound is entertaining, but you can't let yourself be enchanted. You can't shut off your brain because you're impressed and you want it to be true. Scam artists want to suppress your bulls**t filter. They want to gain your confidence. I think religion wants to gain your confidence. It wants your faith. It will push all your buttons to get it - hope (heaven), fear (hell), guilt, you name it. Religion is all over those hot buttons that everyone has. You may not like the fear part, or maybe not the guilt part, and decide to edit one or both of those out of your personal version of the faith, but they're in there.
 
Don't you think Chansen that you are being a tad arrogant by thinking you have the only "bulls**t" meter on this cafe?
 
Waterfall said:
Don't you think Chansen that you are being a tad arrogant by thinking you have the only "bulls**t" meter on this cafe?
Click to expand...

I have a personal relationship with a guy who died for me 2000 years ago. He died for you, too. He has made my life better and he can make your life better. His name is Doug.

If that doesn't set off a klaxon alarm in your skull, I don't know what would. Change one word, and most of the people on this forum would take the above seriously if it were written by someone other than me.
 
Sorry, I think what I wrote is valid and not off topic, except perhaps my last reply.

I'll leave the thread. I pray that Doug will forgive me for what I've done.
 
chansen said:
I have a personal relationship with a guy who died for me 2000 years ago. He died for you, too. He has made my life better and he can make your life better. His name is Doug.

If that doesn't set off a klaxon alarm in your skull, I don't know what would. Change one word, and most of the people on this forum would take the above seriously if it were written by someone other than me.
Click to expand...

Interesting - you didn't speak of a resurrection. Guess that's what separates your Doug from our Christ Jesus.
 
crazyheart said:
For those who don't believe in a place called "Hell" and that is a lot of church people, I know,

but they do believe in a place called "Heaven". This, too is a lot of church people that I know.

How can they believe in one and not the other?

Any discussion?
Click to expand...
Hi crazyheart dose this mean you . You don't believe in the Bible? and others to you say""""
 
Hermann said:
Even the Pope said that "Heaven" and "Hell" are not real places.

But, if one of them is a real place, then so should the other.


I sent my mind to the invisible,
A lesson of the afterlife to tell,
And it came back telling me,
That I myself am heaven and hell.

-Omar Khayyam
Click to expand...
-- I don't know the name here . What church dose he go to?
 
Seeler said:
I can only speak for myself and what I believe, based on my understanding of God and the Bible.
I don't believe that there is a physical place called hell, nor a physical place called heaven.
I don't believe in hell, except the hell on earth that humankind has created and hell as the absence of what is good, right, pure, true.
I do believe that Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is near, at hand, and within. Jesus gave us many parables about the kingdom "The kingdom of God is like a woman who loses a coin ... " "Like a pearl of great price ..." "Like a shepherd who has lost a sheep ..." and my favourite "Like yeast in bread" or "a mustard seed".
I heard a modern day parable recently, "The kingdom is like a man who has lost his keys. Running late for an appointment he searches desperately. And then finds them in his pocket."
Yes, I believe in heaven - but not a physical place.
Click to expand...
--I believe only in the one Man who has been to both. His name is Christ Jesus . The rest may believe what they will. airclean33
 
airclean33 said:
-- I don't know the name here . What church dose he go to?
Click to expand...

You mean Omar Khayyam? He was a Muslim, a 13th century Persian poet, mathematician, and mystic. The quote is from his poem "The Rubaiyat", translated into English by Edward Fitzgerald.
 
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