This is where I become a tad confused. God offers us His grace and we in turn offer grace to others, but how do we extend that grace within our communities without creating rules or laws that reflect that grace? Otherwise wouldn't we just assume somebody else is doing it? How do we build communities or create God's kingdom without having a plan to follow?
Grace and the Law
- Thread starter Waterfall
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revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
Personally I think the confusion is in understanding that grace is "offered" rather than grace is "given". When we emphasize grace is offered we render grace incomplete and then go about emphasizing "acceptance" as being part of grace.
When we construct that relationship we have constructed a give to get relationship and the emphasis is less on what God gives and more on what we accept. Why is that problematic? It is problematic because we then propose methods to acquire grace and turn it into a reward for doing the right thing rather than a gift from God which none of us could ever earn. It is a short walk from thinking we have earned forgiveness to believing we can dictate how God gives it to others and what the other must do to force God to give it. Here is where believing, saying and doing the right things ultimately become more important than grace itself.
Grace is freely given to me no matter what I may think of it or do with it. Which at the very least keeps me humble knowing that I wasn't owed anything by God and reminds me that I cannot compel from others what I was unprepared to give myself.
The two human options, with respect to the flow of God's grace are to be a dam (and try and hold grace back) or be a conduit and allow grace to flow. As we consider this we should bear in mind that dams must release water that is held back or the water being held back will overflow the dam and find its way to where it was intended to go. Dams, at best, delay the free flow of grace, they can never stop it forever.
When we construct rules and regulations we are building dams and only allowing grace to flow in limited and controlled amounts. It may be true that the limited amounts of grace which slip through carefully built walls does not satisfy entirely the world outside the walls. Thank God for rain in that case eh? What we would hold back by weight of rule God sends in ways and forms beyond our ability to limit.
And the rest of the world, knowing we have more grace at our disposal than we appear willing to share rightly goes elsewhere to find a free and more reliable source.
Waterfall said:
Well communities and kingdoms don't need to hoard resources that are abundant and sometimes the rules are in place to remind us of what ought to be conserved and what should be shared liberally.
As far as grace is concerned it comes from God and while it may be limited season by season God is free to send as much or as little to us for our stewardship. We can either be like the servant in the parable who is fearful and buries what is given or, we can be like the two who decided to work with what they were given and ultimately realized a return on the investment. Some of the resources that are placed in a Church's hands are greatly limited and must be stewarded accordingly. It is not my experience that grace is one of those resources.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Or Perhaps understand how GOD works.
1 Corinthians 5:7
(7) For we walk by faith, not by sight.
New King James Version Change your email Bible version
There is a similarity between eyesight and faith simply in the effect that they have—one on the physical, the other on the spiritual. Nevertheless, in terms of II Corinthians 5:7, faith and eyesight are opposites. Recall that Hebrews 11:1 says that "faith is . . . the evidence of things not seen." Faith is the conviction of what we have heard but cannot see. "Faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17).
Man says. "Seeing is believing." So when a man sees something, he is convicted, and his mind, then, is inclined to what he has seen. In the life of the righteous, faith is the controlling factor that motivates his conduct. The importance of eyesight is true in the physical realm, but it means almost nothing in the spiritual realm.
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Waterfall you post---
.but shouldn't we have a plan and laws in place that ensure we take care of one another freely.
Airclean ---Of course GOD seen this long ago.
Lev 19:18 (You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: )I am the LORD.
Now you should know who is your neighbor.
.but shouldn't we have a plan and laws in place that ensure we take care of one another freely.
Airclean ---Of course GOD seen this long ago.
Lev 19:18 (You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: )I am the LORD.
Now you should know who is your neighbor.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
And who is your neighbour? Only the "sons of your own people"?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
That depends on whether or not grace is enough in and of itself.
If it is then no, we don't need plans and laws in place.
If it isn't enough then yes, we should implement plans and laws.
Let us be mindful that the moment plans and laws come into play we are no longer talking about grace so much as we are obligation and from there it is a short hop to righteousness due to our works. And after that hop it is a simple skip to the things that really destroy and punish people (all in God's name of course).
We've all heard how it works, Do the right things, believe the right things, say the right things, wear the right things, cut and paste the right things etc., and etc.
Over on Rita's thread, "The Church Is Killing It's Gay Kids", Rita is pushing for laws to be in place for protection and acceptance. Why isn't God's grace sufficient?
Silly, it's the one that will loan you their tools when you need them.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
Well part of it is that there are a good number of Christians who are strong believers in works righteousness and so have very little time for grace and graciousness.
Another part of it is that there are a good number of people who aren't interested in what Christianity might say about anything.
Society exists even where the Church might not and responsible society protects its members. The wider conversation is not simply about how Gay kids are treated in Church but rather how Gay kids are treated in General. Should there be a difference between the treatment of Gay kids in society writ large and Church in particular?
I lean towards no, there shouldn't be a difference. I am just one voice.
Until my voice is shared by those within and without the Church I will probably be disappointed.
Romans 10:4
"Christ is the end of the law, so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes"
I am reading that the word "end" in this verse is translated from the Greek "teleos" which actually translates closer to "the goal to which the Torah (law) aims" and the word "end" doesn't do the word teleos justice. Of course there are various other translations for teleos.
We can have Grace without the law, but what about living in the chaos of no law?
"Christ is the end of the law, so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes"
I am reading that the word "end" in this verse is translated from the Greek "teleos" which actually translates closer to "the goal to which the Torah (law) aims" and the word "end" doesn't do the word teleos justice. Of course there are various other translations for teleos.
We can have Grace without the law, but what about living in the chaos of no law?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
I see where you are coming from. I simply want to keep things open and honest.
If we are going to appeal to grace we cannot then insist on laws being needed.
If we are going to insist on a need for rule of law it needs to be recognized that we are deficient in a gracious response to the grace of God which is freely given.
Then laws, like Jesus' commentary on Moses granting certificates of divorce have nothing to do with what God desires but exist only to control the hardness of human hearts.
Why was Paul told this then?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
It is a condescension.
Grace is the goal, the people were not in a place where grace could be learned let alone lived.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Goal setting. It keeps people from thinking that the place they occupy now is the place they should be calling home.
Jesus appealed to the law, "you have heard it said" but then he asked for a few steps further, "but I tell you."
Again the law is working with broken people, it is the crutch which lets them limp. Grace is a stretcher as it carries folk.
There are those who believe they have to show God they can stand on their own two feet.
So really, Jesus' crucifixion didn't "end" the law as some Christians like to claim, we still need to live by the law also even though grace is given?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said:
Jesus' crucifixion is the end of the law in that it fulfills the law rather than abolishes it.
Jesus' crucifixion does not end the people's need for laws because people's behaviours didn't transform immediately because of the crucifixion.
Humanity is still human and while those of us who are new creations in Christ can be sure that there is now no condemnation we still fall short in being gracious.
Like the unmerciful servant who is forgiven his debt we have a tendency to go out and grab the throats of those who owe us much less than what we just had forgiven and demand satisfaction.
We may be saved by Grace, we still are wed to works.