God Asked Abraham to do WHAT?!?!?!???

[Waterfall]

Maybe it's to show us that God doesn't think that sacrificing a son is acceptable. Of course that would mess up Christianity big time wouldn't it?

 

[chansen]

The faith exploration and approach to the Bible as I have experienced in the ordained ministers of the United Church of Canada is what has increased my faith. The actual looking at the texts, as GordW does in his opening post.

I am thankful for the individuals who have spent time exploring and looking, and ripping away all the layers of literalism that were put on it through my parents generation. I don't think that my grandparents had the same literal understanding, which is interesting. I wonder why that is...

Sure there are faith groups out there that are stuck in the literal translation stuff, but, I have not found that to be the majority here or in my church. I don't need to spend time on those conversations unless they try to use their faith as a weapon against others....then again, that is no different than if someone uses anything as a weapon.

The other way to put that, Pinga, is many Christians don't even know what's in the bible. They rely on ministers to reveal the warm and fuzzy bits to them on Sundays. Your "ripping away all the layers of literalism" is another's "sanitization". You can take any book with ugly stories, and make it look like a children's book. But the ugliness of the book is still between the covers.

 

[chansen]

Maybe it's to show us that God doesn't think that sacrificing a son is acceptable. Of course that would mess up Christianity big time wouldn't it?

Just a tad.

 

[Pinga]

Yes, there are those who have spent years exploring language, context, reference, misuse and many other items

That is a positive

I engage doctors and specialists for my medical health. I don't put my time in quacks

I do the same with my spiritual health, look for experts

 

[Inukshuk]

Chansen ~ can you just accept the fact, that for Christians, reading the sacred text is part of our tradition? For the most part, we use the books of the Bible to come to a fuller understanding of the union between us and God. There is no denying that many abuse the Bible.
Do you have any traditions? At Thanksgiving, does the patriarch of the family always sit at the head of the table? Do you put up strings of outdoor lights at Christmas? Do you give out candy on Halloween? Do you tell and re-tell stories, that have special significance, from the past? Traditions ~ the handing down from generation to generation.
Wondercafe2 is a safe place for you to bash Christianity. Would you be equally comfortable in a mosque, telling the men to stop reading the Quran because it hasn't evolved? Is the Tanakh an anchor around the neck of all people of Jewish faith? Should Rastafarians toss the Holy Piby because it hasn't changed, since it was written? What about those that read the writings of Confucius? the words of Buddha? Do you really believe they are all trying to score points against science?

 

[chansen]

Chansen ~ can you just accept the fact, that for Christians, reading the sacred text is part of our tradition?

"Tradition" is not, in and of itself, a very good reason to do something. I have nothing against reading the bible. I think Pinga highlights a point that many people don't have the foggiest what's actually in the damn thing, because they consume their bible stories by spoon, fed by a minister.

But why is it "sacred"? I still haven't heard a good answer for that. I hear lots of empty claims, but nothing that impresses me.

For the most part, we use the books of the Bible to come to a fuller understanding of the union between us and God. There is no denying that many abuse the Bible.

That's quite the tradition as well.

Do you have any traditions? At Thanksgiving, does the patriarch of the family always sit at the head of the table? Do you put up strings of outdoor lights at Christmas? Do you give out candy on Halloween? Do you tell and re-tell stories, that have special significance, from the past? Traditions ~ the handing down from generation to generation.

Sure. Our traditions include my mother worrying about me, and my father yelling at me. My wife's family has a distinct tradition of reading Twas The Night Before Christmas together, every Christmas Eve.

Neither family got together to celebrate an ancient torture and murder.

Wondercafe2 is a safe place for you to bash Christianity. Would you be equally comfortable in a mosque, telling the men to stop reading the Quran because it hasn't evolved? Is the Tanakh an anchor around the neck of all people of Jewish faith? Should Rastafarians toss the Holy Piby because it hasn't changed, since it was written? What about those that read the writings of Confucius? the words of Buddha? Do you really believe they are all trying to score points against science?

Christianity is worth bashing, I think. I don't know much about Islam. I suspect it comes from the same tradition of bulls**t that Christianity does, likely for the purpose of controlling people and consolidating power. If your argument is that Christians won't kill me for being blasphemous any more, while Muslims still might....that's not the powerful argument in your favour that you might think it is.

I don't think many religions fight science in this day as much as Christianity does. Not the UCCan, I agree. But the UCCan is not representative of all of Christianity in North America. You really are Christianity-Lite. You occupy a middle ground between hard core Christians and the non-religious, and you're being pulled apart in a polarizing world. Internally, you've got your Gretta Vospers, and your Cruxifusionists. We've seen a wide spectrum of beliefs from a handful of UCCan ministers on Wondercafe. For "experts", there is much to disagree on over a book that we've had almost 2000 years to pour over, even within one denomination. There are thousands of Christian denominations. Christians, as a whole, don't have an effing clue what to believe.

The bible can be whatever you want it to be. It can defend almost any decision or action. Is it an important book? Absolutely. Has it influenced history? No question. Should we study it? Yes. Far more than any other book? What? No. Should we believe the stories as written or even as metaphors and devote our lives to them and make our decisions by them? No, that's insane.

 

[chansen]

Yes, certainly people obsess over the bible and there are cults and weird groups with weird ideas.

But there are weird groups with weird ideas for all sorts of things. Parenting weird ideas, vaccinations, guns, diets, food, fake medicines........

Ah, but they don't have divine guidance. Or actually, many of those things you list could be biblically-inspired. The gun culture of the US has strong Christian ties. Ineffective home schoolers are largely Christians keeping their children out of godless schools. All sorts of food and drug and financial scams prey on the religious and are sold through church groups, I suspect because they'll believe all sorts of crap if the seller is also a Christian.

Every single thing you've listed there, I could find you examples that have a Christian overture to them.

For me , the bible tells the story of people. It is not a science book, it shows what early people thought about the mysteries of our world and ourselves. Stories, fables, factual events....... It is our job to relate those words to our lives and how we live.

That sounds interesting, to know what the ancients from those time periods thought about the mysteries of our world. Sounds like something any person might be curious about. Doesn't sound like something you'd build a building around and gather weekly to discuss for the rest of your life.

We. Still see violence in the name of religion Of course we also see extreme violence in the name of secular life. Humans seem to have a great appetite for violence to move their personal ideas forward.

Where? Please, for the love of all that you see as holy, please tell me where we see "extreme violence in the name of secular life." My life will not be complete until you show me people being blown to pieces in the name of there being no god for sure. For one, it's a very long and awkward battle cry.

Abraham was trusting that GOD had a plan And that he And his son Were part of it. He had spoken to GOD.

And believed. So if the covenant with god was that he would be the father of the nations, he knew that the covenant was safe and secure. A binding agreement. Was the scene played out to show Isaac something?

Yeah, that his father was a dumbass. Honestly, if your father had done that to you, what would your reaction be? If your husband did that to your son, what would your reaction be? Would you care if your husband said, "It's okay, God has a covenant?"

You'd hit your husband with a frying pan. Why? Because you're not insane or stupid.

But somehow, put this story in the context of religion, and it's fine. Or it's not important. Or it can be re-imagined to be less violent and the intentions more honourable. Somehow. If you can swallow the explanations. Many different explanations. From "experts".

It's a story about blind obedience. We're not even talking about a deity that to this point had not had anybody killed. He already supposedly had an impressive body count.

There are literally serial killers who would not risk or threaten the harming of a child. There are serial killers with a stronger moral compass than God in this story.

 

[Pinga]

Who said that it wasn't important?

You take the old testament stories as literal chansen, whereas I do not nor most folks that you have chatted with on this site.

I get it feeds your desire to bash, but honestly since I consider it simply a story for dialogue, the bashing does not impact other than a distraction


Hmm, I wonder if that is part of the story. I can picture the old geezers chewing this story centuries ago

 

[Waterfall]

Well, if one of the 10 or 16 of Gods commandments tells us to "not kill", then could it be that every explanation thus far has missed the whole point of the story? There must be hundreds of explanations and theories of what this story means but why do our explanations not match up with God's commandment of not killing?

 

[chansen]

And being prepared to murder your child is metaphor for....? Help me out here.

God - omnipotent, just not very good with metaphors.

Who said that it wasn't important?

You take the old testament stories as literal chansen, whereas I do not nor most folks that you have chatted with on this site.

I get it feeds your desire to bash, but honestly since I consider it simply a story for dialogue, the bashing does not impact other than a distraction


Hmm, I wonder if that is part of the story. I can picture the old geezers chewing this story centuries ago

And being prepared to murder your child is metaphor for....? Help me out here.

God - omnipotent and omniscient, but only mediocre with metaphors.


And I do not consider what I write here a distraction. Far from it. I think what I'm pointing out is what people who have not yet fallen for this religion see - things that are actually massive red flags, that are apparently traffic cones to Christians, showing what to steer around.

 

[chansen]

Well, if one of the 10 or 16 of Gods commandments tells us to "not kill", then could it be that every explanation thus far has missed the whole point of the story? There must be hundreds of explanations and theories of what this story means but why do our explanations not match up with God's commandment of not killing?

Sorry, is that one for me? Because my answer is that the story is written by people and very probably, not God. So there are lots of disagreements and inconsistencies.

 

[Waterfall]

And being prepared to murder your child is metaphor for....? Help me out here.

A Bad Hair Day?

 

[Waterfall]

Sorry, is that one for me? Because my answer is that the story is written by people and very probably, not God. So there are lots of disagreements and inconsistencies.

Hmm, interesting, maybe it wasn't God. It would make more sense if it wasn't, but God would provide a ram. This is starting to sound like Satan, God and Job.

 

[chansen]

Zeus would then turn that ram into a duck and have sex with it, so Christianity shows some improvements over previous gods.

 

[Waterfall]

Zeus would then turn that ram into a duck and have sex with it, so Christianity shows some improvements over previous gods.

Just curious, is there some sort of "law" in atheism that states you shouldn't make arguments about non existent gods by using examples of other non existent gods?

 

[chansen]

That's not an argument - it's a joke. I thought the god-duck sex comment would give it away. Poe's Law, I suppose.

There is nothing to atheism. No laws. It is a non-thing. It's just the realization that theism hasn't got a leg to stand on.

 

[revjohn]

Maybe it's to show us that God doesn't think that sacrificing a son is acceptable. Of course that would mess up Christianity big time wouldn't it?

Not really.

The divine child abuse argument takes as given that God sacrifices Jesus.

It does not accept that Jesus might sacrifice himself.

And why should it? I mean we have a moral and visceral reaction to the notion of a parent sacrificing a child.

What reaction do we have to an individual sacrificing themselves on behalf of others?

What do we think of police officers who are shot in the line of duty?

What do we think of firefighters who fall in the line of duty?

What do we think of soldiers who die in the line of duty?

Do we find any of that to raise the same moral and visceral indignation?

What would we think of the police officer who stepped aside and let evil have its way, or the firefighter who stood at the curb and said, "I'm not going into that," or the soldier who said, "fight your own damn wars." Would we be so eager to call them heroes and admire their courage?

Abraham believes that God will provide a lamb and lo and behold there is a ram in a thicket and the lamb of God which comes into the world takes away the sin of the world how?

Blood on the lintel tells death it must pass over.

What is in the blood of a lamb that has power over death like that?

 

[Waterfall]

Not really.

The divine child abuse argument takes as given that God sacrifices Jesus.

It does not accept that Jesus might sacrifice himself.

And why should it? I mean we have a moral and visceral reaction to the notion of a parent sacrificing a child.

What reaction do we have to an individual sacrificing themselves on behalf of others?

What do we think of police officers who are shot in the line of duty?

What do we think of firefighters who fall in the line of duty?

What do we think of soldiers who die in the line of duty?

Do we find any of that to raise the same moral and visceral indignation?

What would we think of the police officer who stepped aside and let evil have its way, or the firefighter who stood at the curb and said, "I'm not going into that," or the soldier who said, "fight your own damn wars." Would we be so eager to call them heroes and admire their courage?

Abraham believes that God will provide a lamb and lo and behold there is a ram in a thicket and the lamb of God which comes into the world takes away the sin of the world how?

Blood on the lintel tells death it must pass over.

What is in the blood of a lamb that has power over death like that?

Good points but we do refer to Jesus as God's son, so the imagery is there. What do you think of the idea that it may not have been God speaking to Abraham, but it was God who provided the ram? Shouldn't Abraham have known that God commanded us not to kill? If it was God, wouldn't this mean that God had a "dual" nature and contradicted his own commandment?

 

[Delightful Life]

HELLO FELLOW CONVIVIAL SENTIENTS. NICE PLACE I HAVE HERE. COULD USE A BIT MORE CHIFFON.

Ah yes, GordW picks one of the Bibble's Showstoppers :3

The Bibble, a mishmash of conflicting narratives (intentionally so), a quantum reality who-dunnit (take a look at the Crucifixion, so many different happenings...)

In that way, I present

1. The Abraham story is responsible for the continued glee of genocide and/or
2. Abraham was of a certain culture. Which one? Which cultural Deities might he have followed? One of their practices was child sacrifice (so lets say Ba'al). Now, one of the properties of this New G_d on the scene (the creator of all), was that He wasn't all aboot child sacrifice. So Abraham, following Ba'al's decree, goes to murder his son...and is stopped by the New Deity on the Block, showing the reader that this New Deity is more powerful than Ba'al and/or
3. The Abraham story is part of the process to get people to be more moral than g_d, showing again that it is something to be overcome and/or
4 5 6 etc what everyone else is posting

I really like revjohn's riff, that Abe was testing...

Here's my current favourite take

 

[Inukshuk]

Christianity is worth bashing, I think. I don't know much about Islam. I suspect it comes from the same tradition of bulls**t that Christianity does, likely for the purpose of controlling people and consolidating power. If your argument is that Christians won't kill me for being blasphemous any more, while Muslims still might....that's not the powerful argument in your favour that you might think it is.

Interesting ~ while Islamic militants weren't in my mind when I asked you the question - your inner default setting immediately takes you to the extreme - almost like you are verging on fundamentalist atheism.
I get that, for you, the how of science is enough.
Some of us know that there is more than the here and now. We need to weave the science and theology ~ the mythology and traditions, to understand the why.