GordW
Church-Geek-Oramus
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I stayed with Isaac's family this week--focussing on his brother Ishmael:
http://stpaulsuc.podbean.com/e/call-him-ishmael/
http://stpaulsuc.podbean.com/e/call-him-ishmael/
God Asked Abraham to do WHAT?!?!?!???
- Thread starter GordW
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jimkenney12
Well-Known Member
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Ahaa! magazine, I believe, many years ago had a story about a minister reading this story, then asking the congregation what it meant to them. One man stood up, saying, "I believe the story is about a God who gives everything and demands everything. I have heard little of this God in this church, and I am leaving to find a church that does speak of this God." And he left.
Sometimes we try to make God a bit wishy and washy, and we are all the poorer for it.
Sometimes we try to make God a bit wishy and washy, and we are all the poorer for it.
Beloved
Well-Known Member
This story in the bible is oftened preached on as being a "test" - God testing Abraham's faithfulness and obedience. And when I read it that is how it comes across to me more often than not too. I don't like this story much (although I believe we can learn something even from things we don't like). It makes me wonder - what is it about God that God would have to test Abraham/anyone? If God knows all, then God knows Abraham's heart, mind, and spirit. God would know already how Abraham is going to react and what he is going to do. God already knows Abraham is going to pass the test. Leads me to ask - is the test then for Abraham's benefit . . . that Abraham needs to know himself of his faithfulness and obedience to God in time of a crunch?
It appears to me that Abraham, despite the horrendous thing he has been asked to do, follows through, with an internal belief that he is not going to have to do what God has commanded. Abraham has passed the test from the get-go, just by being willing.
I sometimes think that in my own life . . . I don't always have to "do", I just have to be "willing". Yet, I am still uncertain as to what they gain is in that - what gain is there for God? What gain is there for me?
I do not like the idea that God tests us . . . and I would never use that type of philosphy, or religion, or words to try and comfort someone in times of challenges and difficulties. My personal idea of God is not that of a God that would put tests in our lives . . . our lives are challenging enough as it is.
It appears to me that Abraham, despite the horrendous thing he has been asked to do, follows through, with an internal belief that he is not going to have to do what God has commanded. Abraham has passed the test from the get-go, just by being willing.
I sometimes think that in my own life . . . I don't always have to "do", I just have to be "willing". Yet, I am still uncertain as to what they gain is in that - what gain is there for God? What gain is there for me?
I do not like the idea that God tests us . . . and I would never use that type of philosphy, or religion, or words to try and comfort someone in times of challenges and difficulties. My personal idea of God is not that of a God that would put tests in our lives . . . our lives are challenging enough as it is.
qwerty
Rest In Peace
So, I guess that qualifies as good news. God isn't really a sadistic psychopath but, rather, more like an internet troll and a father who beats his kid to toughen him up (all rolled into one)?
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
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well yeah, Canadians do tend to be overhumble & 'safe'...
Church Secretary
New Member
The way I read the story of Abraham and Isaac is two-fold.
First of all, it's historical. Abraham came from a religion that practiced child sacrifice. He had a vision and the religion turned into one the prohibited child sacrifice. Abraham may have been a historical person but more likely he was a symbolic one, standing in for a whole group of Jewish patriarchs that rejected child sacrifice and felt it was their god telling them to do so.
On the level of a parable I see it as the fact that in real life we may be asked to do things which are completely horrible. For example sometimes we have to choose between one child and another. Does she get to go to unversity or does the money have to get spent removing his wisdom teeth? Do I take my crying terrified child to the doctor to have a tube painfully put down her nose or do I let her fear and pain effect me so she doesn't get a test that could diagnosis a potentially lethal disease?
So the parable implies that you can trust in God. The situation may seem untenable, but if you go ahead in confidence that you are doing the best you can, God will put you into a position where you see alternatives if the sacrifice is not a right thing to do. So if I go ahead and make the appointment for the wisdom teeth removal so my son doesn't have to suffer, perhaps one of his aunts will volunteer to chip in towards the cost of the extractions, or perhaps his sister will do all the better at school because she has to delay going and work for a year or two before she gets to start. The parable tells me that God will send a ram like one of those two possibilities.
First of all, it's historical. Abraham came from a religion that practiced child sacrifice. He had a vision and the religion turned into one the prohibited child sacrifice. Abraham may have been a historical person but more likely he was a symbolic one, standing in for a whole group of Jewish patriarchs that rejected child sacrifice and felt it was their god telling them to do so.
On the level of a parable I see it as the fact that in real life we may be asked to do things which are completely horrible. For example sometimes we have to choose between one child and another. Does she get to go to unversity or does the money have to get spent removing his wisdom teeth? Do I take my crying terrified child to the doctor to have a tube painfully put down her nose or do I let her fear and pain effect me so she doesn't get a test that could diagnosis a potentially lethal disease?
So the parable implies that you can trust in God. The situation may seem untenable, but if you go ahead in confidence that you are doing the best you can, God will put you into a position where you see alternatives if the sacrifice is not a right thing to do. So if I go ahead and make the appointment for the wisdom teeth removal so my son doesn't have to suffer, perhaps one of his aunts will volunteer to chip in towards the cost of the extractions, or perhaps his sister will do all the better at school because she has to delay going and work for a year or two before she gets to start. The parable tells me that God will send a ram like one of those two possibilities.
JRT
Me on the left.
Well, I would be perfect if I could just overcome my excessive humility.
Neo
Well-Known Member
I think that it's confusing why Christians are still so enamoured with the God of the Old Testament. Jehovah is clearly a national and racial god of the Jews and of the Jews only.
Jesus never spoke the name of Jehovah and, as in Matthew 5, contradicted the Jewish commandments and laws several times. i.e. How can a Being who commanded, in 1 Samuel 15:3, "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys!”, ever be compared to the God of Love and forgiveness that Jesus spoke of?
The jealous, vengeful, wrathful and murderous Jehovah of the Old Testament is not the same God of Love, our Father in Heaven, as found in the New Testament. It's contradictions like the above that keep me out of Christian churches.
In Mathew 15:22-24, Jesus says" I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Also in Mathew 10:5-6 "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of Israel"
After He died He said: "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always to the end of the age."
It does seem that Jesus did come for the Jewish nation. I am curious though if He ever told His disciples to make disciples of all gentile nations BEFORE his death on the cross? Anyone know where exactly in the Bible Jesus says to start preaching to the Gentiles?
Neo, supposedly God doesn't change, we do.
After He died He said: "All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and of the son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always to the end of the age."
It does seem that Jesus did come for the Jewish nation. I am curious though if He ever told His disciples to make disciples of all gentile nations BEFORE his death on the cross? Anyone know where exactly in the Bible Jesus says to start preaching to the Gentiles?
Neo, supposedly God doesn't change, we do.
Neo
Well-Known Member
What's that, re "the age"?
Neo
Well-Known Member
I believe the Master, the Christ, said these words to tell us that while it may have appeared that he has left this world, the fact is, according to one of the esoteric tenets, that He was to be found no further than the high Himalaya's, watching and working with the world from afar, (through the senior Masters Who report directly to the Christ).
He hinted, just before the last supper, when this age would end when his disciples ask Him where they could meet Him. He said "go to the man bearing the pitcher of water", which of course is a direct reference to the Age of Aquarius. Great Teachers like the Christ never waste words or say things that have no meaning.
In the Book of Revelations, St John spoke of a vision when evil in this world would finally end, and it would be in "a time and times and a half a time", meaning half way through the Age of Capricorn, in about 3,000 years from today.
When Moses came down from the mountain he found the Israel's worshipping the Bull, hundreds of years after the Age of Taurus ended. Moses marked the beginning of the Age of Aries, the lamb of God.
The Christ appeared at a time that was well known and predicted by wise men. It was the time that marked the transition point between two great "Precessional Years", when the signs of the Zodiac lined up perfectly with the constellations of the Zodiac.
These Signs of the Ages are not just astrological beliefs but rather astronomical facts.
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crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
Neo
Well-Known Member
As a side, I'm doing better than ever. I think the big 'C' was dragging me down for years. It's been over two years now since the surgeon said I'd probably be dead in two years if I ignored it. So now, yesterday I spent the day delivering bags of manure for our local Scout group, and today I'm about to shovel a load of soil from my trailer to the back yard. At (almost) 60 years old, I'm doing great. Thanks for asking Crazyheart.