God as Father?

[Jaebius]

The SUPPOSED original Aramaic...the text comes from Gospels written in Greek. AFAIK there is no pre-Matthew or pre-Luke text showing wht the community originally remembered JEsus saying in either Aramaic or Hebrew

You don't think Mark predates Matthew and Luke?

 

[revsdd]

The SUPPOSED original Aramaic...the text comes from Gospels written in Greek. AFAIK there is no pre-Matthew or pre-Luke text showing wht the community originally remembered JEsus saying in either Aramaic or Hebrew

Thanks Gord. I was just about to point out that we don't actually have an original Aramaic text of the Lord's Prayer.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

"In Christ there is no male or female."

Longing for the day in which each and all are recognized by their being and not their appearing. A coming day made possible one personal decision at a time.

I am who I am becoming is true of every human being in every time and place. Sad to see us arguing about different ways of saying this. The war of my god against your god by which we are divided and destroyed.

George

 

[Jaebius]

Hi,

"In Christ there is no male or female."

Amen George. That has to do with salvation - male and female are saved in the same way. It isn't about roles in the church.

 

[KayTheCurler]

You've actually witnessed such things take place Kay? Wow, just wow. Glad I never have.

That isn't at all surprising - you are male so don't get discriminated against by religion as much as women. It is a bit like not giving any thought to the stairs in your church because you can easily walk up them. They are a major problem for someone with a mobility problem and they may choose to just stay away claiming your church isn't friendly or accepting of individual difficulties..

 

[GeoFee]

Hi Jae,

It has to do with the recovery of our common human being, which was lost when we crossed a boundary. Being lost we searched for a way home. Many ways were offered. The way of religion was common. As was the way of politics. These two ways ebb and flow through history. Often beginning well. Invariably ending badly.

In the church there are many gifts inspired by one spirit. The spirit of Christ in the Christian way of talking. Each person makes manifest some ability or resource to further the obtaining of a common goal. Others up thread have noticed that discerning ability or authority on the basis of gender is incongruent with the revelation of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. I agree without reservation.

Being dead to our material preoccupations we no longer know one another as male or female. We know each other as companions along the opening way. My marriage with Barbara is an example. She is every bit her father's son. Just as I am every bit my mother's daughter. We appear as male and female materially. We are otherwise spiritually.

Salvation is about diagnosis and remedy. Identifying the problem and addressing it therapeutically. The work of education in a sane society. A society in view for us but not manifest among us. The bright light of the living one in, through, and among us is now shining to expose the shadow world of worldly religion. Temple religion. The hearing of what God is saying without the doing. Employing the name of God as benediction and doxology for the enterprise of the state. Good followers of Jesus are good patrons of the market economy. I say this as one wholly complicit.

Back on topic. I am; the name of God in me as in you.

George

 

[Jaebius]

It is a bit like not giving any thought to the stairs in your church because you can easily walk up them.

Two thoughts here Kay. First, I don't currently have a church. Second, I have spoken here at WC2 about my sometimes-painful flat feet, so I feel that your talking about how I can easily walk up stairs is a little cruel. Oh, and by the way - the past two churches I was in each had a lift.

 

[Waterfall]

Thanks Gord. I was just about to point out that we don't actually have an original Aramaic text of the Lord's Prayer.

So this site is fake? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Live and learn.

The Lords Prayer

 

[KayTheCurler]

Two thoughts here Kay. First, I don't currently have a church. Second, I have spoken here at WC2 about my sometimes-painful flat feet, so I feel that your talking about how I can easily walk up stairs is a little cruel. Oh, and by the way - the past two churches I was in each had a lift.

Could you use a wee tad of imaginative interpretation for a change Jae. OK - omit church (because you want to nitpick) substitute any other building you do or have spent time in. Hoe often did you think about the layout and how it would improve or put difficulties into someone else's life?

Poor baby - flat feet eh. Try - plantar fasciitis - disintegrating bones in your feet- or any other more painful affliction before whining about it.

A few weeks ago someone posted a photo of their church on my FB page. Very impressive.
"How do you get in there if you use a wheelchair to get around?" I asked, as there was a flight of stairs up to the doors.
"Oh" was the reply "People like that would have to use the side door, on the right. Inside there is an elevator. They would have to find someone with a key to it though".
"Does the side door have an electric opener so a person in a wheelchair could actually open it?"
"No, but anyone would hold the door for them. They could just yell for help or bring someone with them to help. We don't have any members who use wheelchairs though, so it doesn't really matter".

 

[Jaebius]

Could you use a wee tad of imaginative interpretation for a change Jae. OK - omit church (because you want to nitpick) substitute any other building you do or have spent time in. Hoe often did you think about the layout and how it would improve or put difficulties into someone else's life?

Have never kept track Kay. Definitely from time to time. Do keep in mind that you're speaking with someone with a disability here, who has friends with other disabilities. So, yes, such thoughts have crossed my mind.

 

[GordW]

You don't think Mark predates Matthew and Luke?

A) the Lord's Prayer is not in Mark
B) afaik the earliest texts of Mark we have are in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew

So yes I agree that Mark likely predates any of the other Gospels. But that has little or no bearing on what I was commenting on.

 

[Jaebius]

A) the Lord's Prayer is not in Mark
B) afaik the earliest texts of Mark we have are in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew

So yes I agree that Mark likely predates any of the other Gospels. But that has little or no bearing on what I was commenting on.

 

[KayTheCurler]

Give me a break - flatfeet don't count as a disability worth mentioning. I seem to recall that you also have epilepsy but have no idea how this rules your choices.

 

[Luce NDs]

I had absolutely no relationship with my earthly father. When I was very young I was told he had died when I was a baby. Later I was told he had abandoned my mother when she was pregnant. Whatever happened, I never met him and have never had any contact with him. However, for me that non-existent relationship with my earthly father does not hinder my understanding of God as "Father." In fact, it enriches it. I see in God what fatherhood should be. From a personal point of view, the image of God as Father is a rich one. In my ministry, however, I rarely use the term "Father" to refer to God, because I understand that it is alienating to some people for deeply personal reasons. For the same reason, I don't use the term "Mother" for God. And, for the most part, I attempt to avoid pronouns for God. There are plenty of meaningful adjectives and names that work for God.

A bifurcated god as divined ... kind 've like crutch if you can' see other than one way ...

 

[Luce NDs]

As I mentioned previously I don't like God as Father, particularly given Christianity's deeply patriarchal roots.

And like revsdd suggested, I don't like pronouns to refer to God at all. I find that reducing God to human form/imagery (as opposed to Jesus who was human, of course) actively limits God.

In essence ... that fitz!

 

[Luce NDs]

Give me a break - flatfeet don't count as a disability worth mentioning. I seem to recall that you also have epilepsy but have no idea how this rules your choices.

Mark fits his score as an icon on the earth ... footprints ... heavy ones? Lordy, Lordy raise me up ... at night in the dark is that down ... abstract space is so chaotic ... when its all in your mind ... is mind out there as denied in the greater wills?

Entitlement doxs ... for the Johns ...

 

[revjohn]

In the original Aramaic the Lords prayer began:

That is conjecture only at this point. There is no evidence, none at all, that suggests the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic.

It would be of limited use even in the Palestinian end of the Roman Empire at the time. Greek, being the language of the Roman Empire (owing to Alexander's earlier influence) would be the more logical language to employ in attempting to take the Gospel outside of the bounds of Judea/Palestine.

Interestingly, the Aramaic New Testament was published for the first time in 1997 and is translated not from original documents but from the Greek text. At least that is the way the vast majority of scholars of the Assyrian language role.

 

[revjohn]

That question would only be valid if preacher was a higher role than others. I don't see it as such. It is a role that is equal to other roles which women can absolutely fill - even in complementarian churches.

The fact that in almost every Christian denomination the role of preacher is an authority position does make valid the assertion that the role is higher than others.

According to Paul the role only submits to the Biblical offices of Apostle or Prophet. Ranked at #3 in terms of authority it is not the highest role one can have in the Church it is higher than most.

And truly the issue is not about whether one regards the role of preacher as equivalent to all other roles, the reality is that when occupation of the role is relegated only to those who have penises that male privilege has been demonstrated to exist. With respect it is no less prejudicial than earlier ages of the Church which thought Gentiles needed to be come Jews in order to belong to the Church or only Whites by virtue of their full share of humanity could be considered to hold positions of authority while non-whites by virtue of their barbarity would not be allowed to hold those positions.

The movement of scripture is away from such fleshly limitations. Hence Paul's wonderful quote about there no longer being Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free, Male or Female since all have been made one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3: 28). While the Church has been historically slow in putting that in to practice (excuses such as complementarianism being one obstacle which detracts from that aspect of the Church's mission) it is moving toward a realized eschatology which is removing genetic barriers to Church office. Because it isn't about whether one is born male or female or Jew or Gentile or slave or free it is about whether or not one has been born of Christ.

Other discernments such as character are permitted, especially if gentle, servant leadership is what the Church seeks to nurture. Character is, of course, is influenced by experience. Jews and Gentiles, Slave and Free, Male and Female all acquire it and all, in theory, are capable of exercising it well. That is what the Church should discern for leadership. Penis checks fail as character test.

And it should go without saying that any test which considers penises should not be about whether you have one so much as it should be about whether or not you are one.

 

[revjohn]

Amen George. That has to do with salvation - male and female are saved in the same way. It isn't about roles in the church.

Actually you are only half right. It isn't about roles in the Church . It is not about salvation.

Salvation is by Grace.

The Galatians passage is about justification. Theologically speaking it is the declaration of a person to be righteous.

So, if any are found to be righteous what excuse exists to limit that righteous child of God from any ecclesial office? What heir of God or co-heir of Christ should be refused consideration for any role within the Church?

Do we really imagine that a heavenly and loving Father would disdain any child on the basis of their gender? Just because the children might be so ignorant and prejudicial do we claim God must be?

 

[GordW]

Stil not sure what point you are tying to make. I am well aware of the assumption/theory that Matthew and Luke used Mark as a template. They also appear to have used source material unique to Matthew or Luke. They also put events in different order at times. And they also seem to have a common source (generally referred to as Q) apart from Mark. The Lord's Prayer appears to come from Q (as do the Beatitudes, though Luke pairs those blessing with complimentary woes). And it is commonly accepted that all were written in Greek.