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GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Hi,
I have often wondered about the preposition "of" when speaking about the name of the father, the name of the son and the name of the holy spirit. Is it fair to think of this as the name which belongs to the father, the name which belongs to the son and the name which belongs to the holy spirit? If so, what is the name in view? My tentative answer would draw on the example of Moses asking how he should respond when asked concerning the authorization of his mandate to liberation of person exploited and oppressed by Egyptian structures of power. He is told that the name of God is "I am who I am". Further, he learns that this is to be the name of God forever.
I am also mindful of the Jewish reluctance to pronounce the name of God at all.
I am also aware that there are a fair number who will insist that "Father" is the only legitimate name "of" God. I would take this as an idolatrous position favouring patriarchal prerogative.
George
I have often wondered about the preposition "of" when speaking about the name of the father, the name of the son and the name of the holy spirit. Is it fair to think of this as the name which belongs to the father, the name which belongs to the son and the name which belongs to the holy spirit? If so, what is the name in view? My tentative answer would draw on the example of Moses asking how he should respond when asked concerning the authorization of his mandate to liberation of person exploited and oppressed by Egyptian structures of power. He is told that the name of God is "I am who I am". Further, he learns that this is to be the name of God forever.
I am also mindful of the Jewish reluctance to pronounce the name of God at all.
I am also aware that there are a fair number who will insist that "Father" is the only legitimate name "of" God. I would take this as an idolatrous position favouring patriarchal prerogative.
George
unsafe
Well-Known Member
this is just my view ---
Does our earthly Father give us a picture --a shadow of what God as our Father is like ------and why we would call God our Father in Heaven ---
Why do we call our earthly parent -----Father -----does our earthly Father want to be with his children and family ---does our earthly Father want to care for his children and family --does our earthly Father want to protect his children and family ------does our earthly Father want to show his love to his children and family ----does our earthly Father want to spend time with his children and family ---would our earthly Father be sad if his child got into trouble and was taken away from him -----would our earthly Father discipline his children if they deserved to be punished for doing wrong --would our earthly Father want to guide his children and want the best for his children in this world ----
Everything mentioned above from a Fathers perspective fits for our Heavenly Father and how He feels about His Children and what He wants for His Children in this life ------
what is the definition of Father-----
fa·ther
ˈfäT͟Hər/
noun
Who created all human beings -------we were before the fall of man-- God the Father's children -------now we are God the Father"s creation until we are reconciled back to God the Father through adoption by and through us receiving the Son of God only then are we called God's children and family heirs to what God the Son accomplished on the Cross for us -----
God who is our Father wants all people to come back to Him but He showed His Grace by giving us a free choice to be reunited as His Children or stay as His Creation no matter the choice we make --- His Love prevails for All people no matter their choice -----God the Father has never abandoned His Created Human beings ----it is us who have abandon Him and don't want Him as our Father in Heaven or Can't see Him as our Father in Heaven ----
For me personally I am very comfortable in calling God-- Father it makes me feel very connected and close to Him ------
Is He a Good Father --------He is a Great Father in my view -----Sending His only Son to Save all from what we ourselves created -----what is more loving and caring than that ------
Does our earthly Father give us a picture --a shadow of what God as our Father is like ------and why we would call God our Father in Heaven ---
Why do we call our earthly parent -----Father -----does our earthly Father want to be with his children and family ---does our earthly Father want to care for his children and family --does our earthly Father want to protect his children and family ------does our earthly Father want to show his love to his children and family ----does our earthly Father want to spend time with his children and family ---would our earthly Father be sad if his child got into trouble and was taken away from him -----would our earthly Father discipline his children if they deserved to be punished for doing wrong --would our earthly Father want to guide his children and want the best for his children in this world ----
Everything mentioned above from a Fathers perspective fits for our Heavenly Father and how He feels about His Children and what He wants for His Children in this life ------
what is the definition of Father-----
fa·ther
ˈfäT͟Hər/
noun
- .
a man in relation to his natural child or children.
Who created all human beings -------we were before the fall of man-- God the Father's children -------now we are God the Father"s creation until we are reconciled back to God the Father through adoption by and through us receiving the Son of God only then are we called God's children and family heirs to what God the Son accomplished on the Cross for us -----
God who is our Father wants all people to come back to Him but He showed His Grace by giving us a free choice to be reunited as His Children or stay as His Creation no matter the choice we make --- His Love prevails for All people no matter their choice -----God the Father has never abandoned His Created Human beings ----it is us who have abandon Him and don't want Him as our Father in Heaven or Can't see Him as our Father in Heaven ----
For me personally I am very comfortable in calling God-- Father it makes me feel very connected and close to Him ------
Is He a Good Father --------He is a Great Father in my view -----Sending His only Son to Save all from what we ourselves created -----what is more loving and caring than that ------
KayTheCurler
Well-Known Member
Well I don't know about that, I now have a hard time separating the word Kleenex from tissue.
I believe I can rely on historical facts through art and literature that will verify that we have created a God into our own likeness to some extent which borders on idolatry, so I consciously try to remove that imagery that even the Bible subscribes to sometimes. Yes I can use the term father, mother, son and think of it in a poetical sense BUT then I would have to falsify parenthood and son ship into a perfectionism that doesn't exist.
KayTheCurler
Well-Known Member
I'm not interested in encouraging male based language. This would be a difficult path to walk if I wanted to attend a Christian church, I think. Way too much history of using Father as a metaphor for God. Also way too many Christians who get upset by any change in 'how we do things at church'.
A Bible reference for my hypothetical question Kay? Sorry, I don't know of one.
We've discussed the Trinity a lot recently here on WC2.
It depends for some of us on just why the change is being done.
KayTheCurler
Well-Known Member
Of course some people don't want change, others do want change, some only want change on their terms.
You said "If God has chosen to limit himself as Trinity, should we not then be content with that?" My question asked you to give some background to that statement. WHERE does God choose to limit itself to a Trinity? I assumed you were using your Biblical knowledge. If not, where do you get the conviction that your statement is true?
You said "If God has chosen to limit himself as Trinity, should we not then be content with that?" My question asked you to give some background to that statement. WHERE does God choose to limit itself to a Trinity? I assumed you were using your Biblical knowledge. If not, where do you get the conviction that your statement is true?
True Kay, and some base their desire for change at least partially on the motives of those who call for it. For example, if someone calls for change in my church, and the change is biblically-sound, that's fine. But if someone calls for change just to fit in with the society kind of thing, for me that's a no thank you.
KayTheCurler said:
Kay, I didn't say when I asked that question that God had chosen to limit himself as Trinity. Rather, I posed a hypothetical question.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Father not only is one who gives , seeds beginnings of life life but also sustains it even to its ultimate , self sacrifice , but it is also a term of endearment/love/affection and relationship. Jesus calls God Father many times, showing these attributes of relationship.
Understanding that God is Creator , puts Him out there somewhere, knowing that He is my father brings him home, close to me and into my heart.
Understanding that God is Creator , puts Him out there somewhere, knowing that He is my father brings him home, close to me and into my heart.
Pinga
Room for All
I heard a new language / phrase Friday --- God as Creator and Fashioner.. I liked it.
Anyhow, God as Father doesn't work for me.
I get why it does for others.
My father had a rough childhood, and it showed in his parenting. It took me many years to see and understand what a good father was. I do not hold it against my Dad, he was tremendously better than his father was.
I just could never use the language of Father with God.
Anyhow, God as Father doesn't work for me.
I get why it does for others.
My father had a rough childhood, and it showed in his parenting. It took me many years to see and understand what a good father was. I do not hold it against my Dad, he was tremendously better than his father was.
I just could never use the language of Father with God.
Is it difficult to limit the eternal to a trinity ... when the quaternary is still out there? It leaves some of us that expect there's more to the myth than some would like to present in naïveté to feel pho'qah (the silent γ, gamma, stand offish in the dark) stabbed by the abstract ... Ψ an ep tune as heavy psi across a wine darkened sea ... a deep concession to the underlying waters ... support system of sol ! It whets the fissure ... great Peddie ... is that Pedre? Quintessence ...
If anything has changed as much as word over time ... we should be familiar with linguistic evolution ... however the word is presumed fixed ... Eyore off base on that one as a unique essence ... it may produce uprising thoughts ... but not always ...
Is sol difficult? Possibly because of the alloying (-ite) of a syllable to the end of limestone in irony ... creating anachronism that stretches across time like the myth of aragonite ... a stone that could be worked by bronzed men in Spain ... allows for urchin development ... a phorqan process where the delicacy hides within a prickly mass ...
Some poet, author, during the enlightenment presented a solution to the floods of street urchins in London ... fattening them up for consummation? That's equal to limitation by conflict ... since we haven't learned much about controlling ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally or ineffably ... all that is left is how the archetype of hysterics is wrote ... some say like a bad apple in the beginning, noting was cultivated .. a priori error of just haute Eire ... when we were left to look after things alone ... clues being on the fringe like the whisper in the pines ... dear lord can't you see me pining, for intellect?
Is the lack thereof a ikon of devoid and denied thought ... that Niche in reality ... Joie of the well rounded essence ... something to get into ... summation ... next you learn how it goes ...
Does the book on major myth not have several indications of 4 winds, horseman, and storms of complete turn about? Some don't ... thye just follow the same way .. and miss the greater variety ... creations valence (neat word to research) has a ballad like Liberty Valence ... odd resolution ... from down under ... partisan (hypo)? The judge is still out so were stuck at quintessence ... no existential solutions but extraction ... intra xenon if looked at from the other side ... and fear of the stranger ... xenophobia?
Be ware of the nun part ... could be dragons ... the Shadow prevails ...
If anything has changed as much as word over time ... we should be familiar with linguistic evolution ... however the word is presumed fixed ... Eyore off base on that one as a unique essence ... it may produce uprising thoughts ... but not always ...
Is sol difficult? Possibly because of the alloying (-ite) of a syllable to the end of limestone in irony ... creating anachronism that stretches across time like the myth of aragonite ... a stone that could be worked by bronzed men in Spain ... allows for urchin development ... a phorqan process where the delicacy hides within a prickly mass ...
Some poet, author, during the enlightenment presented a solution to the floods of street urchins in London ... fattening them up for consummation? That's equal to limitation by conflict ... since we haven't learned much about controlling ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally or ineffably ... all that is left is how the archetype of hysterics is wrote ... some say like a bad apple in the beginning, noting was cultivated .. a priori error of just haute Eire ... when we were left to look after things alone ... clues being on the fringe like the whisper in the pines ... dear lord can't you see me pining, for intellect?
Is the lack thereof a ikon of devoid and denied thought ... that Niche in reality ... Joie of the well rounded essence ... something to get into ... summation ... next you learn how it goes ...
Does the book on major myth not have several indications of 4 winds, horseman, and storms of complete turn about? Some don't ... thye just follow the same way .. and miss the greater variety ... creations valence (neat word to research) has a ballad like Liberty Valence ... odd resolution ... from down under ... partisan (hypo)? The judge is still out so were stuck at quintessence ... no existential solutions but extraction ... intra xenon if looked at from the other side ... and fear of the stranger ... xenophobia?
Be ware of the nun part ... could be dragons ... the Shadow prevails ...
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GordW
Church-Geek-Oramus
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
While I have no issue with the image it has a problematic piece. It is functional language (which has a place) whereas Parent God/Mother God/Father God is relational. I sense we need both (and other) types of metaphor to describe the Divine.
Same problem exists when one looks for alternate Trinitarian language and only uses Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer -- you lose the relationality of the more traditional language.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Thank you, Gord. I was trying to figure out what it was that is missing in "Creator" and such. Relational language. And you've said it well.
For my part, I am not necessarily uncomfortable with "God the Father", provided it is balanced with other images and understandings of God. It is how Jesus saw God for sure (sorry, but he didn't call to his "Parent" on the cross) and there are paternal aspects in how God works. That said, I don't think one image or understanding will ever be enough to encompass the fundamental creative and sustaining power of existence. Even the Trinity is lacking in some ways. These are images we use to try to relate to that power, but not the reality of that power.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
Hi blackbelt,
I would like to explore this a little. Biologically considered the father contributes to the fertilization of a seed within the mother. This is the physical reality of procreation. It is also the mother who nurtures the developing embryo. And, for most of history, it is the mother who provides physical and spiritual nurture to the fledgling child. Following your suggestion above does it not seem that fixing the identity of God as father misses some important aspects of how it is that life in creation begins and is sustained to maturity?
I am also seeing Jesus, the child of God conceived in the womb of Mary, on the cross. He cries out concerning the abandonment of his father. This while his mother is standing in deep sorrow witnessing the murder of her son. A son she believed was going to bring redemption into the world by the will of God.
My basic question has to do with the eclipse of the maternal spirit by the paternal spirit. This in awareness that our human being is manifest as both male and female. That is, Genesis seems to suggest that God is present in human experience as male and female. Why then the emphasis on the male role when speaking about God?
Just my thinking as we explore this as a community of conversation seeking a good way forward.
George
I would like to explore this a little. Biologically considered the father contributes to the fertilization of a seed within the mother. This is the physical reality of procreation. It is also the mother who nurtures the developing embryo. And, for most of history, it is the mother who provides physical and spiritual nurture to the fledgling child. Following your suggestion above does it not seem that fixing the identity of God as father misses some important aspects of how it is that life in creation begins and is sustained to maturity?
I am also seeing Jesus, the child of God conceived in the womb of Mary, on the cross. He cries out concerning the abandonment of his father. This while his mother is standing in deep sorrow witnessing the murder of her son. A son she believed was going to bring redemption into the world by the will of God.
My basic question has to do with the eclipse of the maternal spirit by the paternal spirit. This in awareness that our human being is manifest as both male and female. That is, Genesis seems to suggest that God is present in human experience as male and female. Why then the emphasis on the male role when speaking about God?
Just my thinking as we explore this as a community of conversation seeking a good way forward.
George
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I had absolutely no relationship with my earthly father. When I was very young I was told he had died when I was a baby. Later I was told he had abandoned my mother when she was pregnant. Whatever happened, I never met him and have never had any contact with him. However, for me that non-existent relationship with my earthly father does not hinder my understanding of God as "Father." In fact, it enriches it. I see in God what fatherhood should be. From a personal point of view, the image of God as Father is a rich one. In my ministry, however, I rarely use the term "Father" to refer to God, because I understand that it is alienating to some people for deeply personal reasons. For the same reason, I don't use the term "Mother" for God. And, for the most part, I attempt to avoid pronouns for God. There are plenty of meaningful adjectives and names that work for God.
DaisyJane
I probably should be working.
As I mentioned previously I don't like God as Father, particularly given Christianity's deeply patriarchal roots.
And like revsdd suggested, I don't like pronouns to refer to God at all. I find that reducing God to human form/imagery (as opposed to Jesus who was human, of course) actively limits God.
And like revsdd suggested, I don't like pronouns to refer to God at all. I find that reducing God to human form/imagery (as opposed to Jesus who was human, of course) actively limits God.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I also don't really go for specific human images of God (save Jesus, though I don't necessarily regard him as "God" so much as a human embodiment of God's Will and Word). I see God in many different ways and forms. Mountains, volcanoes, storms, various images of the heavens I come across in my interest in astronomy, even some of the images of other traditions (Siva, for instance, in Hinduism). That said, I do also think there is something to be said for seeing divinity in the humans around us and making that our human image of the Divine. God, for me, is all around us and beyond us in the form of the universe that sustains us so there is really no one image that can encompass all of that.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
I agree to a point, Scripture does suggest Creator as both male and female image , which makes good senses to me as well, but with in the Creator, if I may use the term "with in" for lack of better terms, we have Father, Son & Spirit , a term Jesus Himself Used, this does not negate the female image of Creator , but its does suggest , Father Gives/seeds Life, Mother nurtures that Given Life , all found in The God Head.
I would not use the word abandoned, obviously the story did not end in abandonment
a few reasons I would thing it was good enough for Jesus in action, deed and ministry to us. Secondly, as Jesus suggested, we don't know it all, we forget that God is All, Mother, Father, Judge, Justice, Love, Mercy Compassion, Truth, Life, Sustainer, redeemer and so forth, yet when we speak of God we speak in separate terms of these attributes , we cannot in our limited minds, speak of them as a whole as one, God is One. We are quick to give ultimate Judgement , by one attribute of Creator because its easy to minister out, at the same time boasting our own image in the process, yet completely avoiding the rest of His being.
no wonder God Had to physically show us the way back home in very simple terms all the while spiritually growing , just enough to get us back to our first state, because what has truly fallen is the power of our minds and the power of our wills to move the mind in accordance with the One Creator.
Yahweh, I Will Be What I Will Be
are we what we will?
no