Gender assignment

[Pinga]

I am asking people to ignore Jae in this thread. I know it is hard, but, I think we have done this way before.

if you really feel engaging him with his focus on Northwind, then, I will abandon the thread, coz it just pisses me off too much to see this go on time & time again.

Focus on gender assignment?

 

[Pinga]

Mental health and addictions problems. Estrangement from family. Criminality. Etc.

Thanks Northwind.

Do you have a sense that gender identity disconnect with gender presentation when combined with family challenges, rather than acceptance makes it harder, or is it just hard, period.

@RitaTG , I wonder if you might have references or guidances on this item.

 

[Jaebius]

I am asking people to ignore Jae in this thread. I know it is hard, but, I think we have done this way before.

Focus on gender assignment?

An interesting if uncalled for request Pinga. There's absolutely nothing wrong with sharing one's opinions - indeed, I thought you wanted people's opinions - nor in requesting that people back up claims which they're sharing.

 

[GordW]

Bit of a follow-up question...

IF, in the course of your life and/or work you and/or your child interact with a child whose parents have chosen (for whatever reason) not to assume gender how does that change the way you interact with them?

 

[ChemGal]

THis.

Yes we do. Normally that is based on the genitalia of the newborn. What we are learning is that this is not always an accurate guideline. HOwever, while some parents are trying to be intentional about not assuming gender until their child is able to self-name I do not expect this will become the norm. We as a society will continue to assume gender at birth as a normal way of operating. Which means we as a society need to be intentional about learning how to respond when that child self-identifies in a way other than the assumption we made at birth based on their plumbing.

ANd what do we do when that plumbing is not clear? (as sometimes happens) WEll as we have seen that is a matter of some debate, as it always has been. Historically people have made a "best guess". LArgely, I think, because culturally we have a need to try and slot into binary categories.

And for now I would say the best guess is the way to go about their gender assignment until more is known. Until society is more accepting of gender options other than binary, I think raising a young child without any gender is going to create needless problems for them.

 

[GordW]

I consider such action toward children to be akin to child abuse. Thankfully, I believe that the vast majority of parents are not participating in it.

I do not think it is abusive. I do believe it may make social life more challenging for the child -- particularly perhaps in those developmental years when children are first learning to classify and categorize their world. At the same time it may open the door to a lot of discussions with the child, with their friends, with the adults in their world.

 

[Northwind]

Do you have a sense that gender identity disconnect with gender presentation when combined with family challenges, rather than acceptance makes it harder, or is it just hard, period.

That's a good question. I suppose it comes down to acceptance, doesn't it. I remember meeting a boy who I was sensing identified as a girl. Whether or not my sense was accurate, he was being "encouraged" to act in a certain way. He was not being allowed to be himself. That has a negative impact on a child. I always wonder what happened to him.

I have a friend who I met as a woman who now is living life as a man. He used to say his mother put him in charm school (for real) and ballet school to make him more feminine. We used to joke together that it wasn't for lack of trying on his mother's part. He seems a lot happier now.

So, who knows what influences this. Certainly gender identity creates somewhat unique challenges that strain a family. I mean, so many people see this as black and white. I mean, you're either a girl or a boy, right?

I've listened to many people's stories of not being able to be themselves for some reason. That caused considerable pain on their lives. Ideally, parents will accept their children as they are and will encourage their development accordingly. We know that doesn't always happen.

 

[Northwind]

IF, in the course of your life and/or work you and/or your child interact with a child whose parents have chosen (for whatever reason) not to assume gender how does that change the way you interact with them?

Good question. I imagine it would change interaction. People who raise their children in this manner go against the normal narrative. That challenges us to think and behave outside the typical. I would hope I would be at least respectful.

 

[ChemGal]

A question in another thread spawned this one -- basically about if your child was born intersexed.

Note: the languague is moving around that category.

Here is a video regarding a youth, Rosie.

BBC News

There is more information online.

If your child was born intersexed; how would you respond?

I see this a bit different from gender assignment.
Choosing surgery for a child to get all sex characterists cis to each other is different than picking a set of pronouns.

I stated in the other thread I would go moreso with the wait approach on surgery, although that would depend on a number of factors. If there is surgery needed for functions for a child I would have to also examine what could easily be done at the same time. And if it was done what would future options be if when they got older they wanted surgery to better match a different sex. Also is any sensation being lost.
Even if no surgery was needed at the time, is something about their genitals incredibly abnormal and again what implications on surgery now have on future options.

 

[Pinga]

Bit of a follow-up question...

IF, in the course of your life and/or work you and/or your child interact with a child whose parents have chosen (for whatever reason) not to assume gender how does that change the way you interact with them?

My sense is that more & more kids will just roll with it.
I would hope adults would as well.

I remember being a cisgirl, and going into the girls washroom many many years ago. I was pre-puberty.
I had a pixie cut -- remember those? and likely had jeans and t-shirt on.
Someone told me that I was in the wrong washroom -- dang nabit, I was a girl!
hah. I doubt they would do so now.

 

[Northwind]

My sister often got that too @Pinga

 

[paradox3]

Note: I do appreicate those who offer their wisdom to this thread based on their work, studies and in some cases, life experiences. Thank-you

This brings up a really interesting point. I was at a presentation a few years ago about clinical reasoning skills. The point was made that clinicians often talk about "common sense" and "gut feeling" but these are inaccurate descriptions. Many times these senses/ feelings reflect a deep level of experience, knowledge and problem solving.

Wisdom is a good term for it. It does not deny the importance of peer-reviewed studies and so on but it certainly has its place.

Now back to the topic.

Jae has taken his leave of us once again & has announced it on the last post thread.

 

[paradox3]

In the past parents were pushed to "make a decision" if a baby's gender was ambiguous. I don't think I would go for surgery on an infant unless absolutely necessary for medical reasons. I would take my time & do the research later when I was no longer facing the demands of a newborn.

 

[mgagnonlv]

... If your child was born intersexed; how would you respond?

If your child turns out to be an artist, or blind, or... how would you respond?

I have never liked operations, so there would be only if absolutely needed. If I know the intersex condition at birth, the only practical measure I would take (apart from emergency operations) would be to find a gender-neutral first name. There are very few of these amongst common first names (either in English or in French), but "Dominique" and "Claude" come to mind. That way, the first name would work whether the child turns out to identify mostly as a male or female.

As for "raising the child as a male, female or gender-neutral", I think my sister and I were raised in a fairly gender-neutral way and my wife and I raised our children in a fairly gender-neutral way. I know that expression doesn't mean the same thing for everyone, but as far as I am concerned, it means the following:
– Our daughters were not given only dolls and other "feminine" objects; they also had building blocks, access to a Meccano, and were encouraged to play equally with boys and with girls. We would have done the same with boys.
– Likewise, they were encouraged to be as autonomous as possible, to look at all options for career or life choices, knowing that any choice one makes has consequences.

Now that doesn't mean we forbade them to play with dolls or asked them to play with trucks as much as with dolls. In other words, a gender-neutral education does not mean we prevent our children from turning into a very masculine or feminine individual. I know that some people (especially those who are talking about "gender-neutral experiments" in the news) want to limit choices available to kids; we instead looked at not restraining their options, but rather expanding them.

So the same would obviously apply to an intersex kid. With at some point age-appropriate lessons on how their unique body works. Generally speaking, it seems that waiting until the kid is 10 or 15 before doing any corrective surgery brings as good or even better results than doing it to the baby and doing a few follow-ups as the kid grows. And that is assuming the surgeon made the right choice for the baby. If the surgeon made the wrong choice, than correcting at 15 from an intersex condition gives much better results than correcting the surgeon's mistake. Besides, the child has another equally valid option: that of NOT doing any corrective surgery.

 

[DaisyJane]

It is my understanding that medical research at this point in time recommends against surgery at a young age in situations of ambiguous sexual presentation. My understanding that if parents feel a need to raise the child with a particular gender presentation then that should achieved by non permanent measures - ie: hairstyles, names, clothing, etc.

If my child were born with ambiguous sexual presentation then I would simply assign an androgynous name (ie: Jordan, Morgan, etc), buy neutral clothing, and take all my cues from the child themselves (ie: in terms of interests, presentation, and so on). I would also, as others suggested, find a community of support as well as the best expects in the country.

 

[DaisyJane]

And as per Jae's request I did a quick medline search on the topic. I could copy and paste a handful of articles that advise against surgery, but that seems labour intensive.

A quick search of Google scholar should provide enough evidence for a starting point.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

I find the pronoun to be a problem. I remember my son refusing to speak or even listen to German, because he wanted to be like everyone else. Parents would have to pick a pronoun and if it,is “ they” , put a lot of efford into making it known and used. The child who did not pick it, will have to deal with ongoing questions and corrections. It would not be an easy life, no matter what choices were made by the parents.

 

[revjohn]

If your child was born intersexed; how would you respond?

Lovingly.

How else should I respond? Still flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood right?

Having been present for the births of my three there were more pressing concerns at birth than the status of their genitalia.

Moving forward greater concern for developmental milestones than for which onesie should it wear, the blue one or the pink one.

And along the way frank discussion about their rare expression and how badly some are going to react to it. A variation on the mental health and expectations discussion we had with Robert after the ASD and Bi-Polar diagnoses.

Definite support for them as they try to figure out who they are and how best to express it.

So, nothing rash, lots of love and standing with them when they come to decide who they are.

I expect that referring to the child in infancy as "he" or "she" will likely be an expression of our own wishes and dreams.

At some point the hopes, dreams and wishes of the child become trump.

Devil's Advocate will be employed to test those hopes, dreams and wishes because some things are difficult to retreat from.

And, to be candid, understanding that the wishes, hopes and dreams I had for the child might have to die for theirs to be born.

I would hope I was a strong enough parent to swallow that while getting jazzed about the new person I would get to meet.

 

[Waterfall]

At what age does a child seem to know which sex they relate to? I've heard most knew who they were early in life. Is this for everyone?

 

[Pinga]

Lovingly.

How else should I respond? Still flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood right?

Having been present for the births of my three there were more pressing concerns at birth than the status of their genitalia.

Moving forward greater concern for developmental milestones than for which onesie should it wear, the blue one or the pink one.

And along the way frank discussion about their rare expression and how badly some are going to react to it. A variation on the mental health and expectations discussion we had with Robert after the ASD and Bi-Polar diagnoses.

Definite support for them as they try to figure out who they are and how best to express it.

So, nothing rash, lots of love and standing with them when they come to decide who they are.

I expect that referring to the child in infancy as "he" or "she" will likely be an expression of our own wishes and dreams.

At some point the hopes, dreams and wishes of the child become trump.

Devil's Advocate will be employed to test those hopes, dreams and wishes because some things are difficult to retreat from.

And, to be candid, understanding that the wishes, hopes and dreams I had for the child might have to die for theirs to be born.

I would hope I was a strong enough parent to swallow that while getting jazzed about the new person I would get to meet.

John, this post is one of beauty
Thank-you.