Extrabiblical Evidence about Jesus in the First 2 Centuries
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BetteTheRed
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That's an opinion, not fact. The fact is, however inspired, that the New Testament was written by many different authors, none of them the person Jesus. However, the Quran was dictated by Mohammed based on what he claims to have heard from God. From an empirical, factual POV, one is closer than the other, yes?
I do understand what you're saying Bette. However, I cannot ignore the truth that Jesus is the Author of the Bible. Did he write through human authors? Yes, of course, as I have already agreed. To me, the true splendor of the Bible is that God's Word is one of His means of grace. The Qur'an, on the other hand, is not this.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Pr. Jae said: ↑
Jesus is the Author of the Bible. All Scripture therein was Godd your opinion -breathed through human authors.
BetteTheRed ----your quote -----That's an opinion, not fact.
and your Opinion of it being not a fact ---is just your opinion -------The word states it is a fact -----you have no nothing to show that is s not a fact but we have written words to say it is a fact ------so you take the written word and disprove what it says ------ we have written proof ---what do you have to show that God Lies -----you can dispute what you like but you can't prove the written word is lying -------it is a matter of belief not human reasoning ------
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:20 Context
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
May 2016 be prosperous and fruitful for you
Jesus is the Author of the Bible. All Scripture therein was Godd your opinion -breathed through human authors.
BetteTheRed ----your quote -----That's an opinion, not fact.
and your Opinion of it being not a fact ---is just your opinion -------The word states it is a fact -----you have no nothing to show that is s not a fact but we have written words to say it is a fact ------so you take the written word and disprove what it says ------ we have written proof ---what do you have to show that God Lies -----you can dispute what you like but you can't prove the written word is lying -------it is a matter of belief not human reasoning ------
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:20 Context
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
May 2016 be prosperous and fruitful for you
Jesus doesn't fulfill many of the Torah prophecies about the Messiah.
Also does the Bible actually say he was born in Nazareth or just that He was a Galilean or Nazorean?
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blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Bette said :
Unfortunately, the thread title promises evidence. There's some little evidence for the existence of a Jewish prophet named Jesus; no evidence exists for any of the miraculous claims made of him.
The Holy Spirit is the Miraculous
"Not many?" Care to be more precise Waterfall? Which Torah prophecies about the Messiah do you believe were not fulfilled in Jesus?
There is also supposed to be an Egyptian papyrus that confirms that a census was held in Egypt every so many years.
http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/census.html
Why were census taken? Varies
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-met...census-taking-in-the-ancient-world/index.html
Well for one, the Torah says the Messiah will be fully human and no need for a "second coming" as everything will be fulfilled the first time."Not many?" Care to be more precise Waterfall? Which Torah prophecies about the Messiah do you believe were not fulfilled in Jesus?
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Jesus was Fully Human, everything was fulfilled , a second coming is not about fulfillment
Where can I find this prophecy within the Torah?
As @blackbelt has said, Jesus was fully human; and it was when he came the first time that he inaugurated the Kingdom of God on Earth.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
First, do you mean the "Torah"? Because the Torah is Genesis - Deuteronomy. Or are you referring to the Tanakh (which includes the Torah, but also includes the Nevi-im and the Ketuvim)? The Torah is The Teaching or the Law, the Nevi-im in The Prophets and the Ketuvim is The Writings. Roughly, the Tanakh is what we call the Old Testament, although the church has changed the order of the books, in part to reflect the Christian understanding that Messiah has come in Jesus.
Then, of course basic Christian christology states that Jesus was fully human.
I'd be interested to know which prophecy you believe states specifically that there's no need for a second coming? And what is to be the "fulfilment" of the work of the Messiah that is to be accomplished without this second coming?
BetteTheRed
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Peace on earth, no less, I think. The Messiah was to be a real human leader who would usher in an age of peace, shalom.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I get that. But my question is about prophecy. Waterfall said that the Torah (I do think she meant the Tanakh) says that. Where? (Nor am I trying to be difficult or argumentative here. I'm truly interested in knowing if she has a specific prophecy in mind that she interprets in that way.) The closest I can think of off the top of my head that offers perfect peace as a messianic hope might be Isaiah 65, if that's even to be interpreted as a messianic prophecy. It speaks of the creation of a new heaven and a new earth. Creating a new heaven is clearly not something a real human leader would be able to do, so Isaiah 65 seems to be looking ahead to a fulfilment even beyond the appearance of Messiah, whose coming has already been prophesied in both First and Second Isaiah. Third Isaiah definitely seems to be looking beyond that.
Jews state that the idea of a second coming does not exist in the OT. (I'm only the messenger)
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I get that as well. I thought you were referring to something specific in prophecy, as opposed to the interpretation of the text.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Bette ducked my question; so I'll pose it gain: Bette, can it be that no one has ever explained to you how to connect the Gospels with eyewitness testimony?
The Romans conducted a census every 14 years. So one was conducted in 7 AD and 7 BC, the year of Jesus' birth. 7 BC is the year of the triple conjunction of Jupiter-Saturn-Mars, which in Near Eastern astrology means a great world ruler has been born in the Palestine region. Read about this in Raymond Brown's magisterial book, "The Birth of t he Messiah."
The Romans conducted a census every 14 years. So one was conducted in 7 AD and 7 BC, the year of Jesus' birth. 7 BC is the year of the triple conjunction of Jupiter-Saturn-Mars, which in Near Eastern astrology means a great world ruler has been born in the Palestine region. Read about this in Raymond Brown's magisterial book, "The Birth of t he Messiah."
Jesus - a real human leader? Check. Usher in an age of peace? Check.
BetteTheRed
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I'm not liking this age of peace, Jae. More people have been murdered in Jesus' name than have ever been in any practical way saved.
'That' Jesus, the mythic God-man, does not appeal to me. His teachings, those of a Jewish mystical rabbi, do, and so I try to figure out how to work them in real life terms today.
'That' Jesus, the mythic God-man, does not appeal to me. His teachings, those of a Jewish mystical rabbi, do, and so I try to figure out how to work them in real life terms today.