Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I started my career by working in institutions. The first was a former TB San and was a facility for children. It was on a lovely grounds and actually did some good research on things like Downs and Autism.(they did not do research on the children) They had some behaviour programs and attempted to help the children move out and have productive lives. I worked there as a teen and chose to go to community college to pursue a career in that field. I worked in two institutions post graduation. One was a big ugly facility where people had been dumped in the fifties and sixties. It was more humane when I was there yet still not a place for human beings. I decided to return to university in order to work in a more helpful part of that field. Those institutions have since closed. The former TB San is still open I believe.

Times have changed since the 70's and 80 's thankfully. Of course there is still room to change and improve. Any assisted suicide laws that emerge do need to protect the most vulnerable in our society.

I don't know why I keep responding in here. On one hand, this is an important discussion. On the other, it is tiring to be preached at as if we have no knowledge or compassion. These issues require good critical thinking skills not just a rote reciting of a model. It is an important model. No model is perfect. Thankfully things evolve over time. Hopefully for the better.

It's not rote reciting - not intentionally. It may be reiterating. I said it so many times but then some still made comments late into the thread that they don't understand it. And my point is, it is the internationally recognized human rights model, although people don't like it. That doesn't matter. Times have changed. The medical model is no longer the one to use. We signed and ratified a human rights convention in 2010, and people need to know that. It's not pick and choose or mix n' match. The social model is it. And fields and policies that are behind need to catch up.

To me, not to do that is like saying segregation has been the way in Alabama for decades and so we'll stick to it. We like it. Well, no, you can't do that.

 

[chansen]

I suggest DaisyJane is the one narrowing the lens to her own perspective. And now that disability is equated with impairment in this ruling rather than seeing disability as the barriers in society, everyone with a disability is implicated - not just people with very severe impairments like DaisyJane's son. And although the ruling favours the equal right for people to choose death because they feel too much suffering from their impairments - it doesn't protect people suffering the disabling effects of society by distinguishing impairment from disability (and leaving disability out for that reason). DaisyJane is not being fair and is narrowing the perspective, not me. I am expanding it by separating impairment from disability. She's narrowing it by lumping them together. So is this ruling. So does the medical model.

DaisyJane has done a marvellous job in this thread. She has been understanding and patient. She has explained herself well. She is the one who has opened herself to other models, and taken a measured approach. You haven't.

This is going to set you off again, but you've already butchered your side of the argument. Your posts are irrational, your emotional outbursts aren't helping, your willingness to call good, caring people "ableist" has backfired on you, and if anything, you've made observers want to sanction a hunting season for people with disabilities.

You should have left this thread alone days ago. You were further ahead before you started posting. Going after DaisyJane, when she has been extremely patient with you, is only making you look worse.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

DaisyJane has done a marvellous job in this thread. She has been understanding and patient. She has explained herself well. She is the one who has opened herself to other models, and taken a measured approach. You haven't.

This is going to set you off again, but you've already butchered your side of the argument. Your posts are irrational, your emotional outbursts aren't helping, your willingness to call good, caring people "ableist" has backfired on you, and if anything, you've made observers want to sanction a hunting season for people with disabilities.

You should have left this thread alone days ago. You were further ahead before you started posting. Going after DaisyJane, when she has been extremely patient with you, is only making you look worse.

There's no possible way that anything she says is disputable? Whatever chansen. She narrowed the perspective. She is defending other models but it so happens that the social model is internationally recognized - in international law. PWDs rights groups fought for it themselves and it wasn't because they didn't know about the others. It was because they were oppressed by the others -they were limiting - offshoots of the medical model which sees PWDs as less than whole human beings. The social model respects PWDs human rights as equals instead of leaving it to the academics and 'experts' and others defining us for us.

And I haven't butchered my argument. Impairment is impairment and disability is in society, as says the social model. I stand by that. The social model does not deny impairment of the severity of it's symptoms, it just clearly defines it apart from disability. Of course if you don't seperate the meanings then we get day long debates about what is disability - it's 'nuanced'. No. Two distnct things that are related. It's important for this ruling, for people to understand the difference.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

DaisyJane has done a marvellous job in this thread. She has been understanding and patient. She has explained herself well. She is the one who has opened herself to other models, and taken a measured approach. You haven't.

This is going to set you off again, but you've already butchered your side of the argument. Your posts are irrational, your emotional outbursts aren't helping, your willingness to call good, caring people "ableist" has backfired on you, and if anything, you've made observers want to sanction a hunting season for people with disabilities.

You should have left this thread alone days ago. You were further ahead before you started posting. Going after DaisyJane, when she has been extremely patient with you, is only making you look worse.

You should try asking questions and engaging in debate instead of popping in to blast me. My posts are not irrational at all, but you can always say that, you've got that in your cache, to put me down, don't you?

I haven't 'gone after' DJ any more than she has done to me. In fact, we are just debating and I have the right to debate my arguments as much as she does.

 

[Lastpointe]

Yeah. That's what my mother always said. And that's what I do, of course. It doesn't always work out when you don't know how you're going to feel on different days, how long it might take to have a bath and get dressed (I cannot rush or I invariably hurt myself somehow), or what obstacles are in the way, or if you're going to fall down and have to find somewhere to clean up a bloody knee. It was a hypothetical but these things have happened and you, Northwind and Seeler are being ableist but you don't realize it. Sometimes I feel panicky crossing a street or going down a slight hill when I didn't doing the same thing on a different day but it takes twice as long. Even in mild weather. If it's icey (which it hasn't been at all this winter) it's a nightmare. I do have more to deal with - it is not always predictable. It's not an excuse.


On the other side of the coin the employer could just not make a big deal and allow you to come in early another day, or stay late or use a few minutes break time over the week to adjust for it. But if they are stuck on 9 a.m.sharp or whatever time - it can be ableist. I'm painting a picture of what it looks like and you're being incredibly insensitive.

I agree that perhaps your emplyeer could be flexible.

But my point was that many many people cope with unexpectd issues on their way to work.

You have them too. Ok. But the parent of a sick child has different ones, the people who commute in bad weather, everyone has a big range of time it takes to get to work.

Plan ahead. Your mother was correct.

If you have unexpected issues then you need to plan on them being expected issues.

You think me insensitive. I think you are using your disability as an excuse. If your job requires promptness then figure it out. Or ask for flexible time. But saying that your boss , me, anyone who disagrees with you are wrong because you cant get to work on time is silly

Get up an hour earlier. Move closer. Figure it out. Like the rest of the world

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I agree that perhaps your emplyeer could be flexible.

But my point was that many many people cope with unexpectd issues on their way to work.

You have them too. Ok. But the parent of a sick child has different ones, the people who commute in bad weather, everyone has a big range of time it takes to get to work.

Plan ahead. Your mother was correct.

If you have unexpected issues then you need to plan on them being expected issues.

You think me insensitive. I think you are using your disability as an excuse. If your job requires promptness then figure it out. Or ask for flexible time. But saying that your boss , me, anyone who disagrees with you are wrong because you cant get to work on time is silly

Get up an hour earlier. Move closer. Figure it out. Like the rest of the world

Piss off.

 

[Lastpointe]

Mature


Really kimmio. I get that you have difficulties.

Do you not recognize that being organized and getting to work everyday is an issue for lots of people. For lots of different reasons?

Did you not read about the machinist in Detroit who walked 20 miles each way to work after his car died. For years. Never late

People struggle. Not just you

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Mature


Really kimmio. I get that you have difficulties.

Do you not recognize that being organized and getting to work everyday is an issue for lots of people. For lots of different reasons?

Did you not read about the machinist in Detroit who walked 20 miles each way to work after his car died. For years. Never late

People struggle. Not just you

Stop acting so uppity as if nobody with a mobility impairment has ever thought of such brilliant ideas.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It all comes down to if we want to equalize disadvantage or carry on saying " when I was young I had to walk to school 20 miles in the snow." or s**t like that. Some people can't afford to just "move closer" or pay for things that make life more convenient like you probably can and maybe take for granted.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I agree that perhaps your emplyeer could be flexible.

But my point was that many many people cope with unexpectd issues on their way to work.

You have them too. Ok. But the parent of a sick child has different ones, the people who commute in bad weather, everyone has a big range of time it takes to get to work.

Plan ahead. Your mother was correct.

If you have unexpected issues then you need to plan on them being expected issues.

You think me insensitive. I think you are using your disability as an excuse. If your job requires promptness then figure it out. Or ask for flexible time. But saying that your boss , me, anyone who disagrees with you are wrong because you cant get to work on time is silly

Get up an hour earlier. Move closer. Figure it out. Like the rest of the world

It's not my current employer I was referencing.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Are we being ableist because we disagree with you?? Are we supposed to give you a pass and agree with everything you say because you have a disability? Are we supposed to coddle you because you have a disability?

If you knew me you wouldn't accuse me of being ableist.

No. I was telling a hypothetical story based on past experience. I am pretty conscientious about my work but I have a very flexible boss now. Not always. And that doesn't mean I don't notice room for change. I am not asking for 'coddling'. Maybe a bit more empathy for people who are at a disadvantage - I mean, if we want to work toward a fairer world. If it's not important, forget it.

 

[Lastpointe]

Then why are you giving this example

Of course everyone has difficulties. And i expect you would know to be earlier.

But you gave an example of how you would be late for work. Not me

I think you would be surprised at how many obstacles people climb over every day. It is not just people with disabilities.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Then why are you giving this example

Of course everyone has difficulties. And i expect you would know to be earlier.

But you gave an example of how you would be late for work. Not me

I think you would be surprised at how many obstacles people climb over every day. It is not just people with disabilities.

Of course they do. They also take for granted their ability to navigate the physical world in a 'reasonable' time. They don't have to consciously think about putting one foot in front of the other or step off a curb. They don't have to think about dashing across a street when a walk light just changed as they are in the middle of the road instead of risking being hit by somebody turning the corner and how that can be unnerving - all the little things add up and you can't plan for them all. 30 seconds here, 30 seconds there, a minute there - to deal with some little issue as it's happening - without injuring onesself. Sometimes I just have to go at the pace my body is telling me to and say "screw it. I'm going to be late." and hope for the best. It's not for lack of trying.

 

[Ritafee]

Of course they do. They also take for granted their ability to navigate the physical world in a 'reasonable' time. They don't have to consciously think about putting one foot in front of the other or step off a curb. They don't have to think about dashing across a street when a walk light just changed as they are in the middle of the road instead of risking being hit by somebody turning the corner and how that can be unnerving - all the little things add up and you can't plan for them all. 30 seconds here, 30 seconds there, a minute there - to deal with some little issue as it's happening - without injuring onesself. Sometimes I just have to go at the pace my body is telling me to and say "screw it. I'm going to be late." and hope for the best. It's not for lack of trying.

Some of them have to think about not being arrested for being visible in the street period.

 

[DaisyJane]

I appreciate lastpointe's contribution here (post 1772). I remember the early days of parenting Matthew. I was angry. Really angry. I was resentful and frustrated and overwhelmed. I felt isolated and exhausted. I believed that no one understood my experience and that many "other" parents of kids with disabilities could not relate to my story because my story was so much more extreme than others'. And to be fair to that earlier version of me, things were overwhelming. My guess is if we were to pull threads from the very early days of wondercafe you could read some of that anger and bitterness in the posts.

And then people might remember that I stopped being specialmom and started being daisyjane. I reached a place where I could begin to see my identity and experiences as something that included more than being this special needs parent. I began to understand that disability was only one part of my story and my parenting journey. I also began to understand that my story was not unique.

As I lived this journey and learned to hear others with a heavy dose of humility I learned that I did not corner the market on tragedy, difficulty, and loss. That lots of people, including lots of people who outwardly looked like their lives were easy, unburdened, and barrier-free, lived similarly complicated lives with similar barriers, stigma, challenges, and prejudices. Some had extreme challenges and were quietly and not so quietly suffering and hurting. Granted my journey seemed more visible because my son is very visibly disabled. But, like lastpointe has suggested, I learned that if I listened to others' stories the common ground we shared of living with challenge, difficulty, and so on, was remarkable.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

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Some of them have to think about not being arrested for being visible in the street period.

Yeah. They do. I don't doubt that and I am not someone who doesn't recognize that. I'm about a paycheque, maybe a month, away from that at most times - were it not for a good friend who happened to need help with their bills and were looking for a roommate, we might be there now. Therefore but by the grace of God go I. And imagine if they also have a physical or mental impairment. Having a disability - there have been lots of stops and pauses and restarts in my life. Some periods, I have been more resilient to than others.

 

[Luce NDs]

One must have compassionate patience for pollen, smoke, dissention and other things far from out consciousness!

 

[Pinga]

DaisyJane, I remember our meeting at Five Oaks in those early days.

 

[DaisyJane]

DaisyJane, I remember our meeting at Five Oaks in those early days.

Was I an angry exhausted warrior mother??? Probably.......

 

[DaisyJane]

Just to add to my post a few up, I suppose for me, that is why I support this assisted suicide decision. There is an understanding that while many of us share a common experience of challenge and suffering, we also cannot understand others' suffering and it is unfair to make judgements based on external cues. If I reflect on my earlier experiences I was making judgments on others - that their suffering or challenges were less than mine - which was brutally unfair of me. I am not comfortable applying my judgement of acceptable suffering on another.