Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Seeler]

Kimmio - since my disease is not terminal, by your definition, unless I develop something terminal (like a major heart attach or stroke) I will be denied medically assisted death and will have to choose between finding some other way to end my life or spending my final weeks, months, years helpless in a nursing home. Is that really what you want for me and people like me?
Are you aware that many diseases are not, in and of themselves, terminal. I have read that cancer itself is not terminal - as cancer ravishes their bodies, they die as various organs shut down - some quickly, some over a long period of time - some very painfully.
Of course each year elderly people already weakened by their diseases die from minor ailments like the flu. Maybe I will be reduced to encouraging everybody I know to visit me at my bedside if they have the flu. Sorry if that puts my roommate and the people across the hall in danger.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Seeler There is also a chance that that will not happen until you are very old and acquire something else (everybody dies of something and it is usually cancer or heart disease) there is a chance that you could live well until that happens by learning from others with similar impairments and seeking peer support. But if the door is left wide open for anyone who thinks they are suffering too much because of a disability it devalues the lives of those who live well the best they can with disabilities and fight to overcome barriers external to their impairments. It devalues them in the eyes of the medical professions, costs of social programs, and that devaluation seeps into society until once again people with disabilities are just meaningless, useless people just like we were seen for most of history and people start thinking we are better shut in or dead.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Dear God, now you're reading things into my post that aren't there. I was specifically addressing the issue of bullying and said nothing about disabilities. Kimmio, a doctor's first job is to help the person live their life to the best of their ability. Assisted suicide, IMHO, should be reserved for terminal conditions or those that are near to it (e.g. spending the rest of one's life in an iron lung or something, which mercifully is very rare now). It should not be an option where there are other ways to alleviate the suffering. And the court has not closed the door to the legislation saying that. All it has said is that the option should be there for a certain set of people. In the end, it will be legislation, not the court, that defines who actually falls in that certain set.

Disability should be struck from the pages as a qualifier. A doctor cannot alleviate discrimination.

 

[Mendalla]

Disability should be struck from the pages as a qualifier.

Agreed but that, as I have said many times, will be up to Parliament. You are wasting your breath blasting the court. Start using it to lobby your MP and the candidates for all parties in the upcoming election (which is likely to happen before the 1 year deadline). Get out to town halls and ask the hard questions where the public can hear them being asked. Organize (or join an existing organization) and do letter writing campaigns and send out press releases. If you believe there is a battle to be fought, then start fighting it. But your enemy is not the court. Your enemy is public ignorance and complacence on the issue and rallying people to your cause so that the political chattering class has to listen is your best strategy.

A doctor cannot alleviate discrimination.

The cure for discrimination is social, not medical, much like the cure for bullying. And it has been waged and won many times in the past (cf Selma) and will be again before the world is really a safe place. It will require laws prohibiting discrimination, robust enforcement of those laws, training and education (Ontarians with Disabilities Act makes such training mandatory in the workplace, for instance), and other social measures. It also requires people willing to come forward and be the public face for the movement. Same-sex marriage and homosexual rights in general gained a lot more traction once people started to see gay celebrities and gay couples in public.

 

[Seeler]

Kimmio - do you think I'm stupid? Do you think that I don't have a support system? In fact this week I am speaking to my Parkinsons' Support Group about the fact that life isn't over when you receive the diagnosis of Parkinsons - and of how, after the initial shock of the diagnosis and some negative reaction from some of the people I shared it with, I've written and published a novel. I see my doctor regularly. I take medication and hope that when my body no longer responds to the medication I am on, there will be something else for me to try. Science and the medical profession are working on this all the time. I am aware of ways to make life easier, of items that can be adapted - bibs to keep from staining clothes with spilled food - grab bars, canes, walkers, wheelchairs, motorized scooters. I've visited a friend who has bars all over his house to enable him to navigate from room to room without his wife's arm or his walker. I think the program at our next meeting will be discuss these items that make life easier. Life is not over for me. But -- my disease is not terminal. It is uncomfortable at times but not extremely painful (although a sudden spasm in the fingers or in the calf muscle can be excrutiating). I may live a long time yet, and have good quality of life. And yes, I may have a heart attack or get struck by a bus tomorrow and not have to make any decisions. But this ruling has given me hope that when all else is hopeless and I no longer want to face an increasingly difficult future, if I decide that is what I want, I will be able to request help in ending my life.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Seeler no I have never thought you were stupid.

 

[Jaebius]

I didn't know that there is a cure for epilepsy.

 

[Mendalla]

I didn't know that there is a cure for epilepsy.

There isn't that I know of, but there certainly are treatments to mitigate and reduce it's effect so it is hardly "irremediable" any more than @Seeler's Parkinson's. Could it get to a point where that remediation is no longer effective and it moves into that category? Not sure. Is it degenerative like Parkinson's or Alzheimer's so that it worsens with time or is it fairly stable?

PS. Who is this a response to? I didn't see any mention of epilepsy above you?

 

[Jaebius]

There isn't that I know of, but there certainly are treatments to mitigate and reduce it's effect so it is hardly "irremediable" any more than @Seeler's Parkinson's.

PS. Who is this a response to? I didn't see any mention of epilepsy above you?

A number of comments in the thread led to me posting mine - but especially my cousin's saying that disabilities are just social constructs. I'm pretty sure I have seizures independent of whatever society may have to say about them.

 

[Mendalla]

A number of comments in the thread led to me posting mine - but especially my cousin's saying that disabilities are just social constructs. I'm pretty sure I have seizures independent of whatever society may have to say about them.

Very much true. What she means is that "disability" is what happens when society takes a condition like yours or hers and attaches value to it. If society handled the integration and accommodation of conditions like yours and her better and did not devalue people who have them, they would no longer be "disabilities". At least that's how I read it.

 

[airclean33]

I was not going to post again on Wonder cafe . But find that many who posted here know nothing about The Lord my GOD. You would break His laws and make your own thinking in some ways you are greater than GOD. All who do so will face GOD in Judgment. Thou shell not Kill. That means your self as well. If you believe not . I think you best read how the Jewish People felt about this.

Some facts about Fortress Masada


Once it became apparent that the Tenth Legion's battering rams and catapults would succeed in breaching Masada's walls, Elazar ben Yair - the Zealots’ leader - decided that all the Jewish defenders should commit suicide; the alternative facing the fortress’s defenders were hardly more attractive than death.
Flavius dramatically recounts the story told him by two surviving women. The defenders – almost one thousand men, women and children – led by ben Yair, burnt down the fortress and killed each other. The Zealots cast lots to choose 10 men to kill the remainder. They then chose among themselves the one man who would kill the survivors. That last Jew then killed himself.
Elazar’s final speech clearly was a masterful oration:
"Since we long ago resolved never to be servants to the Romans, nor to any other than to God Himself, Who alone is the true and just Lord of mankind, the time is now come that obliges us to make that resolution true in practice ...We were the very first that revolted, and we are the last to fight against them; and I cannot but esteem it as a favor that God has granted us, that it is still in our power to die bravely, and in a state of freedom."

(Only One would stand before GOD in sin.) The old testament, is not all the Jews lived by. How foolish those Christian's who posted here even Ministers in the church who would face GOD with sin on there hands. My belief is, you don't have the right to take Life unless you can make life from nothing. As far as I know only GOD has that power. He and He alone has the right to end life. He also has the power to see . What that life meant to the future, we do not.

 

[Jaebius]

Very much true. What she means is that "disability" is what happens when society takes a condition like yours or hers and attaches value to it. If society handled the integration and accommodation of conditions like yours and her better and did not devalue people who have them, they would no longer be "disabilities". At least that's how I read it.

So you mean the condition would exist anyway - but it wouldn't be considered as a disadvantage? In my own case - I would say that would be a bit silly - because it is a disadvantage. There are things I simply cannot do because I'm an epileptic.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Very much true. What she means is that "disability" is what happens when society takes a condition like yours or hers and attaches value to it. If society handled the integration and accommodation of conditions like yours and her better and did not devalue people who have them, they would no longer be "disabilities". At least that's how I read it.

That's exactly it. It's also good to keep in mind that everybody has impairments at some point or another. People with disabilities just have them long term/ permanently/ chronically. And nobody is truly 'independent' in an interdependent world built by others - although we place a lot of value on certain perceptions of independence (the fact that the mechanic fixes your car or the city workers clear snow off the road, or someone cuts your hair, etc) over other perceptions of what it means to be independent. For some to have the freedom to live 'independently' they might need a hand with certain daily living activities that are different from what others need. That's how it's a social construct.

 

[Mendalla]

So you mean the condition would exist anyway - but it wouldn't be considered as a disadvantage? In my own case - I would say that would be a bit silly - because it is a disadvantage. There are things I simply cannot do because I'm an epileptic.

Right and there are things I likely can't do due to my myopia and/or my poor coordination (pilot comes to mind). As @Kimmio says, we all have limitations, but not all those limitations are used to devalue or further the limit the person who has them. The problem is not the limitations of the illness itself but when society limits you even further by structuring their reaction to you as a person around assumptions about your disability. How would you feel if your congregation saw you as "Pastor Epileptic" and based their interactions with you around the epilepsy instead of "Pastor Jae" and basing their interactions with you around respect for the role you have chosen to take on in the church? Having had a minister with a moderately severe disability (needed a scooter to get around), I can say it was an eye-opener and very educational even in our welcoming, progressive congregation.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Mendalla that's why I prefer not to use labels even though I have impairments. I'll accept 'person with disabilit(ies)' only as long as it takes for attitudes and perceptions to change.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

For me...going around refering to myself as someone with CP, or someone with depression is like going around advertising that I have had 17 colds in my life, got Norwalk once, sprained my wrist once, had a couple of bladder infections, an acne problem for a few years...well maybe you get the point. I am a person first who happens to have permanent and chronic impairments that, up against barriers, are disabilities.

 

[Jaebius]

For me...going around refering to myself as someone with CP, or someone with depression is like going around advertising that I have had 17 colds in my life, got Norwalk once, sprained my wrist once, had a couple of bladder infections, an acne problem for a few years...well maybe you get the point. I am a person first who happens to have permanent and chronic impairments that, up against barriers, are disabilities.

For me - I want let people know that I'm an epileptic so that they will understand should I ever have a seizure in front of them. I don't tell everyone. I have told my pastor - professors at seminary - and manager and supervisor at [=].

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I understand that, it's for your safety. My primary disability is visible so it's kind of an elephant in the room sometimes and if people ask sincerely I will tell them I have CP - but it's not top of mind unless I am feeling frustrated by a barrier I am presented with - which has been more frequent as I get older. But still, I am me first, and CP is just part of me. I don't say "Hi. I'm Kimmio, and I just want to tell you I have CP." In certain situations I have had to discuss depression but that's dicier because even those who know it's involuntary act differently or can be disrespectful. So, if I'm not feeling well I'm not feeling well, no need to further discuss - is how I often handle it. My husband and current roommate know of course because they can see it, and they are (usually) understanding. But...it's just a 'thing' not something I like to advertise everywhere I go because labels stick.

 

[Delightful Life]

Bette's right. But there should be equal opportunity to death. Not a bunch of rules and hoops to jump through. If it takes too long you may change your mind. What a happier place Canada will be when all the whiners are deleted at will.

oh my...thanks for the image of a future humanity where we've discovered the source code your g_d uses in this universe and so can actually 'delete' people at will from reality...then ghosts will be an unformatted deletion...ooo...books!

(ooo, Reincarnation: renaming a file/human being)

have you heard what's going on in China right now with their elderly suiciding? this is very sad

 

[Justme]

I think that it will be very important that all people who are interested in this ruling participate in the consultations that will happen as a new Bill is drafted (if one is drafted - the Harper government has hidden their head in the sand on other things so while there is a one year waiting period everyone could just pretend it doesn't exist for awhile).

For me, I'm glad that mental suffering and disability are included. It's a bit like when I have a super bad migraine and I go to the ER and they ask me how bad my pain is on a scale of 1-10. Based on what I say they triage me and give me drugs to control the pain and nausea. Someone else with the same level of pain may wither at home or not find it as bad as I do. I see suffering much like that - maybe for me X condition makes MY life not worth living. If I am found to be of sound mind and have tried enough options (not sure how that would be defined) I should be allowed to opt for this choice. I actually find it to be a form of reverse-discrimination when people say that people with depression/mental illness should not qualify because their life is worth living no matter what. In my opinion that is crap. If I look at my own case (and I believe I have detailed it in other posts) I have tried almost everything that is available to me and I have economic resources available to me and a really awesome support system but you know the suffering is pretty extreme and if I, after deliberating, chose that the suffering is more than I can handle then I should get this choice (I am not saying that I should be able to walk into an ER and say kill me now but that I should be able to have the same consideration given to me for my suffering just as we would give someone with terminal cancer).

I also do not think that someone should be able to make the decision for me if there is no living will that exists but if one exists one should be able to follow through on the wishes expressed within it.

I understand where disability advocates are coming from having read most of the links that have been posted here and various conversations with friends and family - we need to ensure that people are protected and not forced to do something because it will make someone else's life easier or cheaper or whatever. Much in the same way as we don't force people to take ECT or smoke medical marijuana (heck, I don't think we actually even force people to have blood transfusions is they don't want to or object to it on religious grounds). But there are ways to do so.

At the same time we need to make it easier for PWD to build lives worth living - but that's a separate issue and does not need to colour this debate.