Can Christianity & Capitalism co-exist?

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Or it was because God and Jesus don't believe in sacrifices.

Really thought provoking comment! How did we get from a vegan God in Genesis 1:29~ "eat only every green plant": to the God in Exodus who commanded (through Moses) to sacrifice animals and then eat the animals, so the Israelites would have nourishment for their great escape? Did God change? Or did the writers change God?
 
Really thought provoking comment! How did we get from a vegan God in Genesis 1:29~ "eat only every green plant": to the God in Exodus who commanded (through Moses) to sacrifice animals and then eat the animals, so the Israelites would have nourishment for their great escape? Did God change? Or did the writers change God?

OTOH, presumably God created carnivores. Or did lions and tigers start out as herbivores and then get corrupted by the Fall?
 
Really thought provoking comment! How did we get from a vegan God in Genesis 1:29~ "eat only every green plant": to the God in Exodus who commanded (through Moses) to sacrifice animals and then eat the animals, so the Israelites would have nourishment for their great escape? Did God change? Or did the writers change God?
I have just checked 3 translations (NIV, NRSV, NJPS) and in none of them does the verse read eat only plants. THat is a logical reading into the passage perhaps since it only mentions the plants given as food after naming dominion over the animals but it is not in the text in any explicit form. And by the time we get to Cain and Abel we have animal sacrifice..with the suggestion that GOd prefers the offering of Abel, the shepherd, to the offerings of Cain, the farmer.

SO maybe people's understanding of God changed.
 
OTOH, presumably God created carnivores. Or did lions and tigers start out as herbivores and then get corrupted by the Fall?
MArk Twain's Diary of Adam and Eve makes that suggestion. Along with a number of other more interesting suggestions...

Must get myself a copy of that somewhere...
 
Well, we have to have some kind of economic system, agreed. However, capitalism, as we have known it thus far, absolutely requires limitless growth. You see how badly it behaves when the GDP doesn't keep on expanding, even marginally.

We need an economic system that inherently doesn't leave anyone out.
i hear ya also, sistah
women seem to be taught not to take up too much space, or complain, to be quiet, etc not to mention spending endless money etc on NOT expanding constantly :3
we already have a system of limitless growth that is showing no signs of decaying or shrinking or losing diversity...
its an amazing thing, really, its called our universe
from such a simple beginning, with only a few items, and, from that, such diverse things as protons, nucleons, prime ministers, the colour durple, women's suffrage...and all seemingly without end, as universe grows & grows, creating more and more diversity, things that had never existed before...

or maybe, like the population explosion that worried sombunall people ago, or peak oil...maybe we should stop thinking of limitless but finite but boundless...like our sun -- its finite, but it is going to live for soooo long, that it might as well, to us, be infinite...

but yeah, these depressions & recessions, all caused by economy growth slowing down, which seems bizarre t'me...but again, maybe that's natural -- just like there are boom and busts in the animal world?

universal love is risen!
 
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MArk Twain's Diary of Adam and Eve makes that suggestion. Along with a number of other more interesting suggestions...

Must get myself a copy of that somewhere...
Did you ever get to see the Will Vinton riff on that? Really fun stuff
 
I was going to post this point in my Bible Translation thread, but it seems more immediately relevant here.

"On the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you will be my people...(Jeremiah 7;22-23--NRSV)."

Other translations cannot believe that Jeremiah's sermon in the Temple would claim that God never revealed the sacrifice system to Moses; so they add, "I did not ONLY speak.." But the NRSV provides the natural shocking translation. The implication is that Hebrew culture demanded a sacrifice system similar to that of their pagan contemporaries, so God agreed to work within such a system and reveal Himself in that system, even though it was not God's preference! Consider in this light the fact that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is treated in the NT as the sacrifice to end all sacrifices!

When Jesus is asked why His teaching on divorce contradicts the more liberal teaching of Moses (which was oppressive towards women), Jesus replies that Moses teaching only reflected "the hardness of their hearts." In other words, they were not culturally ready to hear what God wanted to teach them! Perhaps that same principle can be applied to some of the violence associated with the Israelite conquest of Canaan.
 
"Can Economic Growth Continue Forever? Of Course!" by Tim Harford on the fun Freakonomics website

"...
You might well respond that even if population growth stops, growth in the economy – in GDP – will continue, and fall foul of the rice-on-the-chessboard problem. But I think that here we find a serious gap in the logic of the exponential doomsayers. They’re looking at exponential growth in physical processes—things like heating, cooling, lighting, movement. This is understandable, because they are, after all, physicists. Tom Murphy’s blog post is particularly startling on this point. He points out that if our energy consumption grows at 2.3 percent a year—less than historical rates but enough to increase energy consumption tenfold each century—then the entire planet will reach boiling point in just four centuries. It’s not the greenhouse effect at work; it’s irrelevant to Professor Murphy’s point whether the energy comes from fossil fuels, solar power or fairy dust. This is simply about the waste heat given off, inevitably, when we use energy to do useful work. And it’s pretty hard to argue with the laws of thermodynamics. The calculation sounds shocking, but it’s just the rice on the chessboard all over again.

Here’s the logic lapse: energy growth is not the same as economic growth. GDP merely measures what people are willing to pay for, which is not necessarily connected to the use of energy, or any other physical resource. True, since the beginning of the industrial revolution the two have tended to go hand in hand, but there’s no logical reason why that tendency needs to continue. Indeed, it appears to have stopped already. Would you like to take a guess at energy growth per person in the United States over the last quarter of a century?

It’s not just less than 2.3 percent. It’s less than zero. The same is true for other developed economies such as Germany, Japan and the United Kingdom. Now this is partly due to offshoring to China – but the offshoring effect just doesn’t seem big enough to explain what is going on. It’s also about the changing nature of what is bought and sold in a modern economy.

Think of New York City. It’s a high-income place, and has for more than a century been a creative powerhouse: publishing, music, fashion, art, finance, software, you name it. But energy consumption per person in New York City is lower than in the United States as a whole—in fact, it’s lower than the average in any American state. Ultimately, we can do a lot of the things we value—including value in the grubby pecuniary sense of “are willing to pay lots of cash for”—without expending vast amounts of energy."


-- an exercpt from the article
 
Jesus was a Nazarene. Yes. Which in the Gospels meant he was from Nazareth. Relevance to this discussion?

I've never come across an argument that says that God allowed the Jews to continue a pagan practice of sacrifice because of their prior beliefs. What's your reference for that? If we take the Old Testament seriously, then God didn't "allow" the Jews to sacrifice; it was a command. There's chapter after chapter of how the sacrifices were to be conducted and by whom and when and for what, etc., etc., etc. The very first reference to animal sacrifice in the Old Testament is in Genesis 3, in the story of Cain and Abel. Cain brings "the fruits of the soil" to sacrifice to God, Abel brings "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flocks." God accepts Abel's offering but is displeased with Cain's. References to God hating sacrifices are clearly references to God hating sacrifice if it was simply performed as a ritual with no meaning.

The Greek word in Matthew 21:13 is "Les-ton" (sorry, don't have Greek characters.) It comes from a verb that means "to plunder." There is violence implied by the word "plunder" in that it's usually something that happens during time of war, but the word itself refers to stealing from those who have been conquered. Obviously, the money changers and those selling animals for sacrifice have not "conquered" anyone (at least, not in a violent sense) - so the only natural meaning of the word here is one who steals or robs. The word may be used to suggest that like a conquered people those who had come to make sacrifices were at the mercy of the money changers and animal merchants.
Too much writing this late at night, so I will submit this:

https://lostchristianity.wordpress....paedia-biblica-bible-christianity-christians/


Also Scroll down to the subtitle, "Christian Dilemma" for scriptures both supporting sacrifice and not supporting it.
 
Sorry, but I have to ask. Are you joking, or are you serious?
As Inanna mentioned, some speculate that because of the lack of vegetation after the flood...I really don't know. Or were you questioning the "flood" part?
 
Or were you questioning the "flood" part?

This, I assume. The fact is, unless you're a hard Creationist, your statement about the Flood leading to carnivorous behavious makes 0 sense. In the fossil record, we have carnivorous life going back as far as there was life that could remotely be called "animal". Creatures eating other creatures is as natural as it comes.
 
In fact, that's what distinguishes plant from animal, at root. Plant - eats sun. Animal - eats something else alive.

Well, plants eat sun and nutrients from the soil. And, in rare cases (increasingly rare, sadly, due to habitat destruction), they do consume insects to get those nutrients (sundews, venus flytrap, pitcher plant, etc.).
 
Hey when I can distinguish between two different kingdoms with a few words (and thanks for the "sun plus micronutrients") and it is accurate with one exception (animal eating plants), that's not bad...

And yes, I get it that theoretically, a capitalist economy can expand forever, because it's not physical, yes, but. Practically, when that happens, the currency becomes hilarious ($50 for a stick of gum), then worthless, and must be "re-created". It ALWAYS hurts the poorest the most. I'm not against capitalism. I'm against "Free Market Global Capitalism" as it currently exists. Like finding the "right" religion, there's probably a "Humanist Socialist Democratic Compassionate Creative Capitalism" that works for every culture.
 
This, I assume. The fact is, unless you're a hard Creationist, your statement about the Flood leading to carnivorous behavious makes 0 sense. In the fossil record, we have carnivorous life going back as far as there was life that could remotely be called "animal". Creatures eating other creatures is as natural as it comes.
I suppose, are you dating the flood back 6000 years ago? Are there not other cultures that recorded something similar that would take it further back? Anyway better not derail the thread any further....although there are many forms of currency that drive civilizations.
 
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