Can Christianity & Capitalism co-exist?

[Waterfall]

Clearly, though, in neither passage is Jesus condemning the practice of animal sacrifice.
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Well He was a Nazarene....and although the Jews were permitted to continue these pagan rituals it was never ordained by God. And not too long afterwards, Judas would sell Jesus to the Romans to be sacrificed.
When one looks up the Greek interpretation of den of robbers it is interpreted differently than just a den of theives. Lestai is more aptly described as brigands or violent ones. Which suggests to some scholars that commerce taking place in the temple wasn't the problem that Jesus was addressing when he called it a den of robbers.
Jerimiah also suggests that the temple provided security for those purposely violating the covenant and Jesus thought the temple was becoming a centre of resistance to the nations...rather than a city on the hill that shines its light over every nation.

 

[Seeler]

Waterfall - I don't understand. What are you referring to as 'these pagan rituals ... never ordained by God'.

If you are referring to animal sacrifice, there are long passages in the Hebrew scripture where God directs the people on the rituals of animal sacrifice - as well as the role of the priests, and the building of the tabernacle and then the temple. These sacrifices were continued in New Testament times. Jesus' parents visited the temple and sacrificed two pigeons after his birth.

A remnant of the principal of offering sacrifices remains today when we present our tithes and offerings - usually before the alter in our places of worship.

 

[Waterfall]

Waterfall - I don't understand. What are you referring to as 'these pagan rituals ... never ordained by God'.

If you are referring to animal sacrifice, there are long passages in the Hebrew scripture where God directs the people on the rituals of animal sacrifice - as well as the role of the priests, and the building of the tabernacle and then the temple. These sacrifices were continued in New Testament times. Jesus' parents visited the temple and sacrificed two pigeons after his birth.

A remnant of the principal of offering sacrifices remains today when we present our tithes and offerings - usually before the alter in our places of worship.

Its my understanding that God understood and tolerated the Jews pagan practice of sacrifice due to their previous beliefs, but God hates sacrifice. Maybe the revs or you know otherwise?

 

[revsdd]

Its my understanding that God understood and tolerated the Jews pagan practice of sacrifice due to their previous beliefs, but God hates sacrifice. Maybe the revs or you know otherwise?

Jesus was a Nazarene. Yes. Which in the Gospels meant he was from Nazareth. Relevance to this discussion?

I've never come across an argument that says that God allowed the Jews to continue a pagan practice of sacrifice because of their prior beliefs. What's your reference for that? If we take the Old Testament seriously, then God didn't "allow" the Jews to sacrifice; it was a command. There's chapter after chapter of how the sacrifices were to be conducted and by whom and when and for what, etc., etc., etc. The very first reference to animal sacrifice in the Old Testament is in Genesis 3, in the story of Cain and Abel. Cain brings "the fruits of the soil" to sacrifice to God, Abel brings "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flocks." God accepts Abel's offering but is displeased with Cain's. References to God hating sacrifices are clearly references to God hating sacrifice if it was simply performed as a ritual with no meaning.

The Greek word in Matthew 21:13 is "Les-ton" (sorry, don't have Greek characters.) It comes from a verb that means "to plunder." There is violence implied by the word "plunder" in that it's usually something that happens during time of war, but the word itself refers to stealing from those who have been conquered. Obviously, the money changers and those selling animals for sacrifice have not "conquered" anyone (at least, not in a violent sense) - so the only natural meaning of the word here is one who steals or robs. The word may be used to suggest that like a conquered people those who had come to make sacrifices were at the mercy of the money changers and animal merchants.

 

[Mystic]

It is estimated that in Roman occupied Palestine, 40% of peasant income had to be collected to pay the Temple and Roman taxes. In some ways the Temple police were like the modern Mafia. Galilean peasant farmers might suffer crop failure due to drought and other reasons. The Temple police were unsympathetic to delinquent tax payers; they would pay people a visit and take whatever they wanted from them as a tax equivalent, even beating up the people. So there was a widespread backlash against the corrupt Temple establishment. The Essene community at Qumran considered themselves as a rival spiritual Temple in protest of the corrupt and illegitimate Jerusalem Temple. John the Baptist's baptism of repentance for forgiveness was in some ways a rival to the Temple sacrifice system.

Prophets, both OT and early Christian, often functioned as actors who performed symbolic dramatizations to accentuate their point. Jesus' Cleansing of the Temple (whether one or two) was such a prophetic symbolic act. As such, it may have included corrupt Temple merchants and moneychangers, but I think its symbolism extended far beyond that to the corruption of the overall Temple system. In my view, that is one of the key reasons why Temple officials wanted Jesus dead.

 

[Jaebius]

Jae - you would have been happy with the local Baptist church here. When I first got to know them when I moved into the neighbourhood, their church was a lively place. They held breakfasts and bake sales and rummage sales and put on concerts as fund raisers. Then their pastor retired and they called a new one. One of the first changes he made was to let it be known that hereafter they would be expected to support the church solely by tithes and offerings - no fund raising in the name of the church. The congregation meekly obeyed, although my neighbour told me how sad it made her - she was a stay-at-home mom, and she felt that this was a way she had contributed along with her husband giving a portion of his salary. The women got around the pastor's wishes but holding rummage sales in someone's garage and driveway, and not advertising it as being for the church - except to mention it in conversation.
That pastor is gone now, and I notice that the church has gradually reverted to fund-raising on their own property.

Interesting case Seeler. Which version of that church did you imagine I'd be happiest with? All I said was that I wonder what Jesus' reaction might be to the way some churches make money in our time.

 

[Jaebius]

For Jews in Jesus' day the temple was far more than just a place of worship. It was literally the place where one encountered God - thus, "my Father's house" meant in a very literal sense.

Do we not encounter God in our churches today?

 

[revsdd]

Do we not encounter God in our churches today?

Yes - we encounter God anywhere and everywhere - but the understanding of the presence of God in the church is different than the understanding of how God was considered present in the temple. How many churches have a "holy of holies"?
The temple of Jerusalem in Jesus' day cannot in any way be compared to my church building or your church building or anyone else's church building - either in scale or in function.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Yes - we encounter God anywhere and everywhere - but the understanding of the presence of God in the church is different than the understanding of how God was considered present in the temple. How many churches have a "holy of holies"?
The temple of Jerusalem in Jesus' day cannot in any way be compared to my church building or your church building or anyone else's church building - either in scale or in function.

However, your local synagogue has a symbolic "holy of holies", where the Torah scrolls are kept.

 

[Jaebius]

Yes - we encounter God anywhere and everywhere - but the understanding of the presence of God in the church is different than the understanding of how God was considered present in the temple. How many churches have a "holy of holies"?
The temple of Jerusalem in Jesus' day cannot in any way be compared to my church building or your church building or anyone else's church building - either in scale or in function.

Let's see... Both are places where the faithful gather to worship... Both are places where people encounter God. Yes, I can see what you're saying - they're different in every way.

 

[Mendalla]

Let's see... Both are places where the faithful gather to worship... Both are places where people encounter God. Yes, I can see what you're saying - they're different in every way.

The problem, Jae, is that you do not seem to understand the place of a temple in the ancient world.

A temple in the ancient world, and the Jewish one was no exception, was not a place where people gathered to worship a god (or goddess as the case may be). It was literally the deity's home. It was a place where a deity (Yahweh in the case of the Jews) came down and dwelt within. That's why there was a holy of holies where only priests could enter - you had to be properly prepared and cleansed to encounter the deity. Ordinary people gathered outside and gave the sacrifices to the priests or priestesses who then did the necessary rituals. They did not, for the most part, go inside. Let me repeat that - ordinary people did NOT enter the holy of holies and did NOT encounter the deity directly - only the priesthood could do that.

In a modern Protestant (the RCs hew a bit closer to the ancient model with their priesthood so I'll leave them out) church, the idea is quite different. It is a place where anyone can gather in the presence of God to worship and celebrate. The minister or pastor is not an interface to God (hence the use of those names rather than "priest") but the one who leads the act of worship. Anyone can encounter God and make offerings to God without it having to go through an intermediary. It is not regarded as a dwelling place of the Deity but as a gathering place for the Deity's worshippers.

 

[revsdd]

However, your local synagogue has a symbolic "holy of holies", where the Torah scrolls are kept.

As you say, though - purely symbolic, since - like a church - a synagogue is not the temple.

 

[Jaebius]

The problem, Jae, is that you do not seem to understand the place of a temple in the ancient world.

A temple in the ancient world, and the Jewish one was no exception, was not a place where people gathered to worship a god (or goddess as the case may be). It was literally the deity's home. It was a place where a deity (Yahweh in the case of the Jews) came down and dwelt within. That's why there was a holy of holies where only priests could enter - you had to be properly prepared and cleansed to encounter the deity. Ordinary people gathered outside and gave the sacrifices to the priests or priestesses who then did the necessary rituals. They did not, for the most part, go inside. Let me repeat that - ordinary people did NOT enter the holy of holies and did NOT encounter the deity directly - only the priesthood could do that.

Yes, thank you Mendalla, I knew that. I have learned that in both church and school.

In a modern Protestant (the RCs hew a bit closer to the ancient model with their priesthood so I'll leave them out) church, the idea is quite different. It is a place where anyone can gather in the presence of God to worship and celebrate.

Okay.

The minister or pastor is not an interface to God (hence the use of those names rather than "priest") but the one who leads the act of worship.

On that, I see things a bit differently. I believe in what's called "the priesthood of all believers." While I believe that ultimately the only mediator between humanity and God is Jesus Christ, I also hold that every believer has a role in making God manifest to others, and in lifting others up to God.

[quote="Mendalla:]Anyone can encounter God and make offerings to God without it having to go through an intermediary. It is not regarded as a dwelling place of the Deity but as a gathering place for the Deity's worshippers.[/QUOTE]

Does God not also dwell in churches? I believe in a God who is omnipresent. The Church is a visible representation on earth of the Kingdom of God.

Time and energy are valuable resources. In my experience, the churches who focus most on witnessing, evangelizing, presenting the Gospel, and furthering God's Kingdom have fewer of those resources left for things like planning and presenting white elephant sales and ham and scalloped potato suppers.

 

[Mendalla]

Does God not also dwell in churches? I believe in a God who is omnipresent.

But that does not make a church (in the sense of the building, not the "body of Christ") the same as a temple. It is no different from my home or my car in that regard since God is also present in them if God is omnipresent. That's where the whole temple paradigm breaks in Protestantism. God is no longer only encountered by the ordained priesthood in the temple, but can be encountered anywhere by anyone. A church is a place to gather in community to worship God, not a magical place where the priests mediate between man and God.

 

[revsdd]

On that, I see things a bit differently. I believe in what's called "the priesthood of all believers."

It's the very concept of the priesthood of all believers that makes a church not comparable to the temple.

 

[Jaebius]

A church is a place to gather in community to worship God, not a magical place where the priests mediate between man and God.

As I've said Mendalla, I believe in the priesthood of all believers. Thus, yes, in the way that I've already explained, I believe that at a church priests are mediating between humanity and God. Now, can this happen outside the walls of a church building? Absolutely. A church is actually a people. The question then remains what these people should best be doing - selling people tickets to heaven, selling people tickets to chicken bouillon suppers, or participating in the missio Dei by presenting Christ in ten thousand places.

 

[revsdd]

As I've said Mendalla, I believe in the priesthood of all believers. Thus, yes, in the way that I've already explained, I believe that at a church priests are mediating between humanity and God. Now, can this happen outside the walls of a church building? Absolutely. A church is actually a people. The question then remains what these people should best be doing - selling people tickets to heaven, selling people tickets to chicken bouillon suppers, or participating in the missio Dei by presenting Christ in ten thousand places.

How do you know that one of the ten thousand places in which Christ is being presented as part of the "missio Dei" isn't at a church supper?

 

[Jaebius]

How do you know that one of the ten thousand places in which Christ is being presented as part of the "missio Dei" isn't at a church supper?

It's quite possible for a church supper to be such a place Steven. I'd like to imagine the free suppers my church offers to be such places. A key thing that must be involved is that Christ must actually be presented. I've been to meals some churches have put on that don't present Christ, but rather just serve food so the church can fund raise. Rather than presenting Christ, these churches seemed more interested in running mock restaurants for the glory of said churches.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And if the people who serve, organize, attend, greet, all do so in an atmosphere of love, camaraderie, respect, I believe that the Christ is present.

 

[dreamerman]

It's quite possible for a church supper to be such a place Steven. I'd like to imagine the free suppers my church offers to be such places. A key thing that must be involved is that Christ must actually be presented. I've been to meals some churches have put on that don't present Christ, but rather just serve food so the church can fund raise. Rather than presenting Christ, these churches seemed more interested in running mock restaurants for the glory of said churches.

How exactly do you present Christ, jae? Do you do so through your actions or do you tell everyone in attendance we will now present Christ to you? Maybe instead of a few Elvis impersonators you could use a few Jesus impersonators instead. How about making an image of Christ out of the the mash potatoes? The people in attendance can also make their own image of a celestial being out of their taters before eating them now that would be pretty cool. Maybe if you have a few Catholics in attendance you can throw in a few Hail Mary's, a couple of Our Fathers and even the odd Apostles Creed.