Bullying

[paradox3]

Back to the question of being bystanders to what may or may not be bullying here on WC2.

What is the best course of action?

 

[Northwind]

It is interesting to see how this thread has progressed. It has given me something to think about. I was going to grab some quotes and respond to them and decided to just respond generally. I have a couple comments or questions.

There was mention of bystanders in conflict or possible bullying situations. We know it's hard for bystanders to respond, especially when a group is involved. There's a "group think" where people in a group tend to do what the group does. That can often result in inaction. It's really hard to know what to do or say. A couple members have tried to intervene in my recent conflict. Their stated goal was to help two people that liked sort things out. That was appreciated. How do we as a longstanding group respond to conflict? How can we help?

There was a comment about when it is bullying. I agree there has to be a power differential. How often is power really a factor in this specific forum? How is it exercised? Do we name it bullying when our feelings are hurt, or is it more than that?

What role can council play to help or harm in these situations? I have felt both harm and support from council in my situation.

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts because this is an important discussion

 

[Northwind]

I may have a few thoughts but neither of them has asked me for guidance.

I'm open to guidance or feedback. I don't know what else to do now.

 

[Carolla]

There was mention of bystanders in conflict or possible bullying situations. We know it's hard for bystanders to respond, especially when a group is involved. There's a "group think" where people in a group tend to do what the group does. That can often result in inaction.

The 'bystander effect' is very real. Watched a recent psych/social experiment video on this relative to empathy for someone having difficulty (from the A Conscious Rethink website). They tested a situation of someone having difficulty with a task with 10 people in the observing group; 5 people in the observing group; 1 person observing. When only 1 was present, help was offered quickly with the task. In the groups, the delay was longer with 5 and longer still with 10 present. There is often a sense that somebody else who perhaps knows more/is stronger etc will intervene. That there is sometimes a perceived sense of safety in inaction.

 

[paradox3]

I'm open to guidance or feedback. I don't know what else to do now.

Ideally the two of you would agree not to mention the conflict publicly. Most of the dialogue seems to consist of digs back and forth. Or a dig from one of you and a reaction from the other.

Use the Report Button if you need to. You will need to trust that CG will leave those Reports to the other mods.

I don't think the Ignore function is the answer. It just adds fuel to the fire.

It's tough to have a conflict like this in such a small community. In retrospect I am not sure either of you should have been reinstated as a mod. Personal opinion only.

 

[Northwind]

Thanks @Carolla that helps. I agree that ignore is not the best option. At this point it feels like all I can do. My last attempt fell flat.

 

[Northwind]

Ideally the two of you would agree not to mention the conflict publicly. Most of the dialogue seems to consist of digs back and forth. Or a dig from one of you and a reaction from the other.

I would really like this to happen. I'm glad the discussion has been taken to its own thread so that it doesn't derail this thread further. Having a spot where any discussion between us is in the public eye now is important. People can ignore or join the discussion as they wish. I will not be having any private conversations because I won't continue any discussion without witnesses.

If anyone does feel willing or able to give feedback in that thread I'm good with that. If anyone wants to just ignore that thread that's fine and understandable too.

It is really hard to continue that discussion when I am told only one person was hurt (not me) and that only one person has done harm (me). I question my perception of things and don't trust my response. That's one reason why ignore seems to be my only option.

 

[Carolla]

Part of the 'what to do' from my perspective - relates to the Sufi concept of "3 Gates of Right Speech" and I find that when I ask myself these questions I often delete a post before actually posting it. At 1st point - are the words true factually? or are they my subjective opinion? Most often I screw up at the 2nd point - am I just trying to justify my position? Prove something? Is it honestly, truly necessary to do so? Especially when I understand from past interactions that it may not be heard as I hope.
This text below is copied from a Spirituality & Practice website. (the bold is my addition)

The Sufis capture this idea [of how to stand guard over the gate of the mouth] in a splendid metaphor. They advise us to speak only after our words have managed to issue through three gates.​

At the first gate we ask ourselves, “Are these words true?” If so, let them pass on; if not, back they go.​

​

At the second gate, we ask, “Are they necessary?” They [our words] may be true, but it doesn’t follow that they have to be uttered; they must serve some meaningful purpose. Do they clarify the situation or help someone? Or do they strike a discordant or irrelevant note?​

​

At the last gate we ask, “Are they kind?” If we still feel we must speak out, we need to choose words that will be supportive and loving, not words that embarrass or wound another person. All of us understand what blows can do to someone, but we do not realize that words can create a more painful injury, one that can last for many years. Nor do we understand the terribly destructive impact words can have on the consciousness of the person who uses them.​

— Eknath Easwaran in Meditation

​

 

[paradox3]

True, necessary and kind words are certainly the ideal. Here and elsewhere.

There are times to call a spade a spade though. As kindly as possible.

 

[paradox3]

Here are a couple of things I am pondering.

Is it possible to have two way bullying in a relationship? Or is this just a highly conflicted relationship?

What do we do as a community if we learn of a broken relationship between two of our members?

Are we possibly overestimating the extent of the bullying that goes on here? Or are we underestimating it?

I surely do not have any answers to these questions.

 

[KayTheCurler]

Always remembering of course the view my dad took on this . No one can fault you for calling a spade a spade. Be very careful though that you don't call it a g*d d*mm*d f ***ing shovel.

 

[JayneWonders]

Part of the 'what to do' from my perspective - relates to the Sufi concept of "3 Gates of Right Speech" and I find that when I ask myself these questions I often delete a post before actually posting it. At 1st point - are the words true factually? or are they my subjective opinion? Most often I screw up at the 2nd point - am I just trying to justify my position? Prove something? Is it honestly, truly necessary to do so? Especially when I understand from past interactions that it may not be heard as I hope.
This text below is copied from a Spirituality & Practice website. (the bold is my addition)

The Sufis capture this idea [of how to stand guard over the gate of the mouth] in a splendid metaphor. They advise us to speak only after our words have managed to issue through three gates.​

At the first gate we ask ourselves, “Are these words true?”Are these words true?” If so, let them pass on; if not, back they go.​

​

At the second gate, we ask, “Are they necessary?” They [our words] may be true, but it doesn’t follow that they have to be uttered; they must serve some meaningful purpose. Do they clarify the situation or help someone? Or do they strike a discordant or irrelevant note?​

​

At the last gate we ask, “Are they kind?” If we still feel we must speak out, we need to choose words that will be supportive and loving, not words that embarrass or wound another person. All of us understand what blows can do to someone, but we do not realize that words can create a more painful injury, one that can last for many years. Nor do we understand the terribly destructive impact words can have on the consciousness of the person who uses them.​

— Eknath Easwaran in Meditation

​

"Are these words true?

This is a great question for the reader to ask as well

At times, it can take a lot of work to identify truth

Truth to how someone feels is not something to be argued with. Possibly the best one xan do is acknowledge or seek clarification in what they mean, ie are both understanding a word or emotion the same way

Truth though in a situation or event much harder.

Example: In business, working through a challenge with a group that has gone on for years. The one party, in the position of power, throws up their hands. "I am so frustrated" "why can't they do it right". "They don't listen". The other group, tired of being berated, says nothing. So solution includes asking questions " what does the procedure look like" . It includes a deep dive into data including who did what when
Result: identified process was not complete nor explicit. New people would assume things or miss steps "everyone knows" . Related items were not updated. Procedures were difficult to follow.

People are often unhappy when the questions are being asked. It can feel like just one more person jumping on the dogpile.

If done right, more information can be gathered, getting to root cause

if done right, a light can be shone on a misunderstanding. If necessary, changes can be made to reduce the possibility of it happening again.

 

[chansen]

If necessary, changes can be made to reduce the possibility of it happening again.

When I came back last year, I tried to implement a change that no one would have to issue an insincere apology again, and I was rebuffed.

You're not interested in change to reduce the possibility of something wrong happening again. Maybe if that change benefitted you.

You've not apologized, and you've not committed to never doing it again.

 

[paradox3]

When I came back last year, I tried to implement a change that no one would have to issue an insincere apology again, and I was rebuffed.

You're not interested in change to reduce the possibility of something wrong happening again. Maybe if that change benefitted you.

You've not apologized, and you've not committed to never doing it again.

I recall a discussion about changes to some of our core documents. I think it was decided the forced apology issue was a one time thing and didn't need to be addressed. My memory is fuzzy though.

Point of clarification about the apology. Was it the Council or the moderator group that called for it?

 

[JayneWonders]

I recall a discussion about changes to some of our core documents. I think it was decided the forced apology issue was a one time thing and didn't need to be addressed. My memory is fuzzy though.

Point of clarification about the apology. Was it the Council or the moderator group that called for it?

Just did a quick review.
Back in Sept 2014, it was clearly communicated in the council forum that moderators would make the decision and everyone else back away..
There was work around then to have a moderators forum where they could talk amongst themselves as well. Probably was done in PM (private message/conversation) though at the time.

 

[paradox3]

Just did a quick review.
Back in Sept 2014, it was clearly communicated in the council forum that moderators would make the decision and everyone else back away..

Which decision or decisions?

There was work around then to have a moderators forum where they could talk amongst themselves as well. Probably was done in PM (private message/conversation) though at the time.

It has never been clear to me which issues the entire council would address.

 

[ninj]

Somebody mentioned bystanders, so I'll take that as an invite to chime in.

- Going down the members list, I like (or at least don't hate) all of you. Some maybe better than others, but you all have my respect.

- I am grateful for the work of all the mods and admin, knowing how difficult and dysfunctional things can get.

- I have figured out only a couple of us lucky ones don't act in any administrative role. This place seems a bit top-heavy that regard, but that's no skin off my nose. Glad you're here.

- It's hard watching old "virtual friends", including a few I have met personally, struggling this way. It may have been a plan to be discreet, but you can't close the barn door now.

- This space is special to many of us and a touchstone on the journey.

- I have nothing else to offer, but I'm rootin' for you.
- I have routinely turned down management roles over the years. Can't pay me enough.

- My $5 (that's 2 cents adjusted for inflation).

 

[ninj]

One more point. I felt that starting this thread with the title "Bullying" was misleading if the intent was to focus on a specific issue rather than a broader discussion.
Bit ingenuous, IMHO, but hopefully it's played a role.

 

[paradox3]

One more point. I felt that starting this thread with the title "Bullying" was misleading if the intent was to focus on a specific issue rather than a broader discussion.
Bit ingenuous, IMHO, but hopefully it's played a role.

As the topic starter I can tell you I did not begin with the intent to focus on any specific issue.

 

[chansen]

Just did a quick review.
Back in Sept 2014, it was clearly communicated in the council forum that moderators would make the decision and everyone else back away..
There was work around then to have a moderators forum where they could talk amongst themselves as well. Probably was done in PM (private message/conversation) though at the time.

You had already been chewing me out. Your influence was everywhere on that one. You can't duck and say it was all on the mods when you had been after me in the council forums. You set the tone and John carried it out.

Now John is gone, probably upset that I wasn't happy with his apology that violated almost everything that you yourself listed as the proper "Elements of an apology" earlier last year.

So I'm left trying to set the record straight, that either there should never have been an apology, or offsetting apologies should have been sought instead.

And as I've mentioned a few times, the other way this ends is if you just ban me. Clearly you have to understand I'm serious about that by now.