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Kimmio said:
No. She is outspoken that in her opinion trans women are not women, and she treats trans identity like a passing fetish. However, some of her ideas are very progressive. I’m just leary of JP’s MO in supporting a feminist who is radical, post modernist and anti-patriarchy in every other way, except her opposition to transgender.
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Face it ... given our emotional state ... none knows for sure ... thus thoughts rival love as being nothing when looked at from the opposition ...
 
“All life is a stage and we each the player of our given part.”

I have read no books on being a preacher. I have read three good books on being an actor. When among the gathered company I play the part of a preacher. I do not invite conformity to external norms and standards. I encourage critical engagement of the ideas now governing our historic trajectory. This in the possibility of an alternative imagination of human meaning and purpose.

 
Maybe once there’s no gender, no disability (just universal inclusion and accessibility), no race other than human...we can, or will have, separated the fair minded from the a**holes. Then everyone will be happy/ content. Until then we need identity politics, for the time being, to highlight, rather than whitewash, injustice and intolerance...it’s a tool not a destination. The truth is that though transgender may be a minority among women...to deny them their identity as women is patriarchal. You can feel however you want about their womanhood but to deny their feelings about it, and publicly marginalized them, is just as patriarchal as saying a man has to be competitive or brutish, not have nurturing instincts, or have big muscles or a big penis to be a real man.
 
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I think that I see this anti-trans position as a position of fear. And honestly, because of what a lot of men have done to a lot of women, somewhat rooted in a reality. Of the legitimate fear that many/most women have of men.

But it also seems illogical to me. The kind of men who frighten women, who one could probably legitimately describe as "hating women" - misogynist, are not the same men who think they are women, because you tend to like what you are.
 
BetteTheRed said:
But it also seems illogical to me. The kind of men who frighten women, who one could probably legitimately describe as "hating women" - misogynist, are not the same men who think they are women, because you tend to like what you are.
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Well we aren't talking aboot logic here?
A social norm is: Women's experiences, as victims of patriarchy, are to be listened to.
And that includes their anxieties and fears over some "trans".
The fears and anxieties r real.
Sombunall men don't grok that.
Since gender is a social construct completely, and is now protected by law in Canada (both Criminal code and HR), that means that everyone's reaction is valid, since there r no fixed standards?
 
Plus
we should b wary of taking very nuanced positions
like Nina Paley's and calling it anti trans.
That isn't fair or right I believe.
It is also a vague term.
And is used as a way to demonize and stop conversation, much like islamophobia and anti-semitite can b used to demonize and shut down conversation when dealing with people who have a nuanced opinion or a different opinion that isnt actually anti trans or anti semitic or such
 
i am aware of the nuances of this one, and the damages that can be caused by miscommunication, and band-wagon stuff.

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was a fringe program, run every summer for many years.
Women were free to be themselves. Tenting, quiet , partying, jusic. It was an experience.

There were men that tried to break in. There were planes that flew over & dive bombed.
There were women who wanted to brign their children -- and what if they were boys..what was appropriate on the land, off the land, camping on the land.

Remember some of these women were coming to a place to be with other women coming from a place of trauma.

Then, the women born women challenges started.
When was it ok for a woman who was trans to come, was it ok, what were the pre-reqs.

It got ugly.

Eventually, the organizaers, due to the strife, the pain, the "how do we actually set a marker...." said were done, caling it quits in 2015 after a boycott was initiated in 2014.

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival - Wikipedia
 
OK, I won’t call it anti trans anymore however much it appears that way...but from what I have been reading, the Gender Critical feminist perspective has been hurtful, even some actively outing and harassing, of transgender women. From a intersectional feminist perspective, trans women are doubly a minority, more marginalized, and the gender critical feminists are being bullies toward them...but perhaps they do not think that they are because they see themselves as standing up to men in women’s clothing and fail to acknowledge trans women’s realities...that they are more abused, statistically, by men, than cis gendered women are, and opposing rather than including them helps nobody.
 
Pinga said:
i am aware of the nuances of this one, and the damages that can be caused by miscommunication, and band-wagon stuff.

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was a fringe program, run every summer for many years.
Women were free to be themselves. Tenting, quiet , partying, jusic. It was an experience.

There were men that tried to break in. There were planes that flew over & dive bombed.
There were women who wanted to brign their children -- and what if they were boys..what was appropriate on the land, off the land, camping on the land.

Remember some of these women were coming to a place to be with other women coming from a place of trauma.

Then, the women born women challenges started.
When was it ok for a woman who was trans to come, was it ok, what were the pre-reqs.

It got ugly.

Eventually, the organizaers, due to the strife, the pain, the "how do we actually set a marker...." said were done, caling it quits in 2015 after a boycott was initiated in 2014.

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival - Wikipedia
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I remember you posting about that. Statistically trans women are abused as much or more - by men - than cis-women though...so the fear these women (‘womyn’ have) is irrational and bullying them is wrong...and they are being bullied by gender critical feminists.
 
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Pinga said:
i am aware of the nuances of this one, and the damages that can be caused by miscommunication, and band-wagon stuff.

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was a fringe program, run every summer for many years.
Women were free to be themselves. Tenting, quiet , partying, jusic. It was an experience.

There were men that tried to break in. There were planes that flew over & dive bombed.
There were women who wanted to brign their children -- and what if they were boys..what was appropriate on the land, off the land, camping on the land.

Remember some of these women were coming to a place to be with other women coming from a place of trauma.

Then, the women born women challenges started.
When was it ok for a woman who was trans to come, was it ok, what were the pre-reqs.

It got ugly.

Eventually, the organizaers, due to the strife, the pain, the "how do we actually set a marker...." said were done, caling it quits in 2015 after a boycott was initiated in 2014.

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival - Wikipedia
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i know
its very tough
people have 2 b able 2 talk 2 each other
without hate
without violence
and treat each instance on its own
not everyone has that Belief System, tho, now

there is a real method that is going on with this particular Belief System (some have called it a new religion) i have been writing aboot in various formz

here is Brett Weinstein (a SJW who like his wife lost their tenured positions having to deal with some dangerous brats with baseball bats) trying to understand

 
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You did not read the article, did you, @Kimmio.

It is ok to have women-born-women events.....that was their point.
Sorry, @Inannawhimsey , I bit into a topic, instead of keeping your story post as is.

my apologies. I was trying to support your point, but served to take the thread off line.
 
Pinga said:
You did not read the article, did you, @Kimmio.

It is ok to have women-born-women events.....that was their point.
Sorry, @Inannawhimsey , I bit into a topic, instead of keeping your story post as is.

my apologies. I was trying to support your point, but served to take the thread off line.
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nope it works fine, Pinga. all is good :3

so myth makers, eh?
got any fav myth makers?
 
Pinga said:
You did not read the article, did you, @Kimmio.

It is ok to have women-born-women events.....that was their point.
Sorry, @Inannawhimsey , I bit into a topic, instead of keeping your story post as is.

my apologies. I was trying to support your point, but served to take the thread off line.
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But is it ok now? It was okay 20years ago. But we are not progressing if transgender women are not included.

This relates to Nina Paley because Inanna posted this thread because of her feminist politics that the right is trying to appropriate to marginalize trans people. It was as much about that as her vids. That’s how he introduces people to a political view. Sneakily. Oh, remember that great artist....? turns out... that’s exactly how he introduced Jordan Peterson here.
 
The myth is that we like to learn ... however that is not the way of fear of change and thus off-line for the determined to remain topical!

Is that now well established ...
 
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