Bible Study Thread: Luke

[GordW]

Since Dr. Luke's accurate in his references to history, his statements are trustworthy.

That is certainly what Luke is trying to portray. However, as one of my colleagues pointed out before Christmas, there are problems with his historical markers when it comes to dating the Christmas story and comparing it to Matthew - one specific beign around the dates of Herod the Great and the markers Luke uses.

 

[Carolla]

A child is promised who will do great things.

(As I read this Redbaron - I'm reminded of our concurrent thread about expectations placed on a child)

As Luke opens this gospel, he exhibits his thoughtful and analytical approach, first creating context of time, place, lineage. He's fairly detailed in describing the priesthood & ritual of incense that Zechariah engages. He names the angel as Gabriel. I see that he is fulfilling his initial pledge to Theophilus to organize the many bits of information, eyewitness stories etc, into a cogent narrative.

I notice that in v 6-7 that Zechariah & Elizabeth are named as 'living blamelessly according to all the commandments & regulations' - and yet remain childless. I would think that in that time, childlessness might be interpreted as God's 'penalty' for NOT living into the commandments & thus the judgement of the community would ensue and create that shame. To live thusly and yet still be sanctioned must have been devastating, and yet they remained faithful - or so it seems from the text.

I thought it interesting that Zechariah was struck mute after asking a question of Gabriel - a question that seemed pretty sensible and logical to me. Seemed a severe message re inquiry on matters of faith.

I also found it curious that in v 15 Gabriel states, re the coming child, "he must never drink wine or strong drink". I wonder how this played out - as I think wine was a commonly consumed beverage, probably safer than water or other beverages in some situations, and ultimately used in communion.

 

[Jaebius]

@Jae Yes, it is very possible that Elizabeth had internalized that sense of shame about their infertility. Although it is biblical, I am not comfortable with the term "barren". One reason for my discomfort is that biologically speaking, the failure to conceive is just as likely to have been the man's problem.

But I digress. I think Elizabeth probably felt a great deal of shame that she had not conceived.

Many will rejoice at John's birth, Luke tells us.

And no doubt Zechariah will be happy to get his speech back.

With some couples, the inability to conceive is because of a medical problem that the man has, it's true. However, such was not the case with Zechariah and Elisabeth. In their case, it was Elisabeth who was barren.

 

[Redbaron]

With some couples, the inability to conceive is because of a medical problem that the man has, it's true. However, such was not the case with Zechariah and Elisabeth. In their case, it was Elisabeth who was barren.

How do you know? Maybe it WAS Zechariah who had the problem. Nothing in the text of Luke contradicts that.

 

[Jaebius]

How do you know? Maybe it WAS Zechariah who had the problem. Nothing in the text of Luke contradicts that.

Dr. Luke states that it was Elisabeth who was barren.

"[L Both] Zechariah and Elizabeth ·truly did what God said was good [L were righteous before God]. They ·did [followed; walked in] everything the Lord commanded and were ·without fault [blameless]in keeping his ·law [regulations; requirements]. But they had no children, because Elizabeth ·could not have a baby [could not conceive; T was barren], and both of them were very old [Gen. 17:17; 18:11]." - Luke 1:6-7 (EXB).

 

[paradox3]

Dr. Luke states that it was Elisabeth who was barren.

It does indeed. So a biblical literalist might be inclined to say, yes, it was Elizabeth who was barren.

But for others (like myself) who take into consideration what we know of history, the question is unanswerable. It was commonly assumed that barren women were always the problem when a couple could not conceive. And I don't think Dr. Luke himself would have had the means to investigate fertility from a medical standpoint.

 

[Jaebius]

It does indeed. So a biblical literalist might be inclined to say, yes, it was Elizabeth who was barren.

But for others (like myself) who take into consideration what we know of history, the question is unanswerable. It was commonly assumed that barren women were always the problem when a couple could not conceive. And I don't think Dr. Luke himself would have had the means to investigate fertility from a medical standpoint.

Like millions of other Christians, paradox3, I believe that the Bible, including its gospels, is God's inspired Word. As part of that belief, I trust that God was perfectly capable of inspiring Dr. Luke to write that which was true.

 

[paradox3]

Like millions of other Christians, paradox3, I believe that the Bible, including its gospels, is God's inspired Word. As part of that belief, I trust that God was perfectly capable of inspiring Dr. Luke to write that which was true.

Yes, I understand this is where you are coming from and it is good you can state your viewpoint so clearly. You and I have different ways of reading and understanding scripture & I think this is fine. The best of all possible scenarios will be enriched conversation here on our bible study threads.

 

[Redbaron]

Though the point of the story likely isn't if Elisabeth or Zechariah bore the medical condition, but rather than this child would be long awaited, long anticipated, almost given up on, when he finally materializes. It's a continuing biblical story of hope in the midst of despair.

 

[Luce NDs]

Like millions of other Christians, paradox3, I believe that the Bible, including its gospels, is God's inspired Word. As part of that belief, I trust that God was perfectly capable of inspiring Dr. Luke to write that which was true.

What if they are wrong in their narcissistic assumption that there is nothing beyond the institution allowing for strange experiences on top of book work?

Those with one book as a missal would declare: "don't go that ultimate step!" Understanding that ultimae is defined as distance in one dimension of time ... while time goes on ... breaking even stones! Tis an agenda on paper ... set as a roue ... thus the concept of the rouge moulin in Gael tongue ... strange to those accepting only known things!

This too may come to demiurge and the apple may be divined as divisive ... thus continuing diversity whether we agree on not. Best let it go when you find you can't control it with all the powerful avarice you can ... err ... muster 'd! Thus the troubles muses ... like Moses in the face of God recessed?

It may go either way until the aversion is overcome ... the pain of learning weird stuff that's beyond ... wild "hors"! Some say this may be itchy dogma ... san pu? (fleased gold or that bug in the Pan as antes!) Indifferent and indeterminate definition of out of body experience (OBOUI) when the mind departs the physical portions given to house that which we can't see for the buried jimmy syndrome! Simulates Dai'Z ...

Farce Ide-a appearance ... don;t let it fool yah! Look all ways ... due to eternal stretch ... in single path experiences this is restricted by professional guidance on conformity! Thus conventional orthodoxy ...

 

[Jaebius]

Though the point of the story likely isn't if Elisabeth or Zechariah bore the medical condition, but rather than this child would be long awaited, long anticipated, almost given up on, when he finally materializes. It's a continuing biblical story of hope in the midst of despair.

Agreed. Although I believe Elisabeth's being barren and then being able to conceive sets the stage for Mary's being a virgin but then even as one conceiving. One miraculous conception foreshadows the other.

 

[paradox3]

Agreed. Although I believe Elisabeth's being barren and then being able to conceive sets the stage for Mary's being a virgin but then even as one conceiving. One miraculous conception foreshadows the other.

Could be. In much the same way John the Baptist later heralds the ministry of Jesus.

 

[Mendalla]

Could be. In much the same way John the Baptist later heralds the ministry of Jesus.

In fact, could that be the whole purpose of the story of John's conception and birth? To foreshadow/herald that of Jesus? Which leads me to suspect that this is, like the rest of the birth narratives, more myth than literal history. Doesn't mean I don't value them. In fact, Luke's nativity, which is coming up, is one of my favorite parts of the whole Bible and I've read it from both UCCan and UU lecterns. It's just that I don't seek factual information from them, only deeper meaning.

 

[Jaebius]

In fact, could that be the whole purpose of the story of John's conception and birth? To foreshadow/herald that of Jesus? Which leads me to suspect that this is, like the rest of the birth narratives, more myth than literal history. Doesn't mean I don't value them. In fact, Luke's nativity, which is coming up, is one of my favorite parts of the whole Bible and I've read it from both UCCan and UU lecterns. It's just that I don't seek factual information from them, only deeper meaning.

I agree with you on the foreshadowing part.

 

[paradox3]

In fact, could that be the whole purpose of the story of John's conception and birth? To foreshadow/herald that of Jesus? Which leads me to suspect that this is, like the rest of the birth narratives, more myth than literal history. Doesn't mean I don't value them. In fact, Luke's nativity, which is coming up, is one of my favorite parts of the whole Bible and I've read it from both UCCan and UU lecterns. It's just that I don't seek factual information from them, only deeper meaning.

It always interests me that John the Baptist seems to be the spiritual descendant of Elijah. Even here in Luke 1 we are told he will act with the spirit and power of Elijah.

 

[paradox3]

In fact, Luke's nativity, which is coming up, is one of my favorite parts of the whole Bible

Yes, it is very beautiful and I have a strong visceral reaction whenever I hear it. Either in church or in Charlie Brown's Christmas.

The song of Zechariah at the end of Luke 1 is achingly beautiful as well.

 

[unsafe]

unsafe says -----anyone interested in the actual spiritual message that Luke presents in his gospel ----

This 1st Chapter says a lot about unbelief at first in Zacharias, and how God deals with his unbelief -----also it says they are old it doesn't say how old they were but it does say Elizabeth was barren -----It says that IN GOD'S EYES the 2 were Righteous so they are with God ---So they are not unbelievers ---and this shows God's Sovereignty that nothing or no one will stop His plan to bring His Son to Save the World -----

So it is about the Supernatural Realm defying the Natural Realm -----there is much to learn spiritually from this chapter ----So lets Begin to learn some spiritual lessons from Luke 1 -----

unsafe says -----We know that they both were advanced in years ---If you look up Old Age in Greek

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
old age.
Akin to geron; senility -- old age.


Then if you look up senility ---you get this ----from Webster's

Definition of senile. 1 : of, relating to, exhibiting, or characteristic of old age senile weakness especially : exhibiting a loss of cognitive abilities (such as memory) associated with old age. 2 : approaching the end of a geological cycle of erosion.


unsafe says ---so we see that the 2 of them were beyond the age to have children and Elizabeth was not able to have children even in her early years ----

Verse 38 says this ----36 “Elizabeth, your relative, is six months pregnant with a son in her old age. People said she couldn’t have a child.

unsafe says ---We know that Zacharias was of the Levi Priesthood -----All Jewish Priest were from the Levi tribe and he prayed to have a child ----

unsafe Posting---- read all about Zechariah here -----I am just posting this part

Facts about Zechariah (John the Baptist's Father) | OverviewBible

Zechariah is from the tribe of Levi
In Bible times, the Jews traced their ancestry back to one of Jacob’s twelve sons. Zechariah is from the tribe of Levi, the same tribes that Moses, Aaron, Ezra, and Asaph hail from.


unsafe says ---When Zechariah was burning incense an Angel of the Lord appeared to him ------and we see he was in fear and troubled when this happened ----

11 NKJ Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, N)'>he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

unsafe says ---- the right side -----is the favorable side for God ---Jesus told the fishermen to cast their nets on the right side -----Jesus sits at the right hand of God

unsafe says ---So we see here in this verse below the Questioning of Zacharias ---so doubt and unbelief sets in cause he says I am an old man --

18 And Zacharias said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.”


unsafe says ---This is the most important lesson here ----We either trust in God's promises or we don't ---we are not to Question God's actions and their motives -----

-So here we see Zacharias considering his human condition of being old and not considering God's Promise ------His Faith was weak and his understanding of God's power was ignorant and he very much lacked trust in God's Promises because he allowed pressure to be applied to his thinking about his problem of being old and that would make it impossible to have children instead of thinking all things are possible with God ----

unsafe says -----this is so relevant for us today for believers ----we consider our human condition rather than considering that what God has promised to His Children can be manifested in our lives -----We allow our authority to be placed in unbelief instead of believing in the truth of the Word -----that God will do as He says in what He Promises -----

unsafe says ----Now Zacharias because of his unbelief God took action ------He shut his mouth till He got His plan in action -----

19 And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. 20 But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.”


God's Sovereignty showing here -----no one will stop His Plan -----He will do what He has to execute what He wants ----

unsafe says ---doubt ---fear and unbelief plague most True Christians at one time or another but these don't creep in for lack of evidence they creep in because we are not Grounded and Rooted in our Faith and Trust in God's Word and this allows Satan to play havoc with out thinking focusing our attention on our Natural condition instead of relying on God's Supernatural ability to do as He says in His Word ---


Abraham is an example of doubting the first time God went to him and he and his wife turned to the Natural----- But Abraham got wise and the second time God approached him ---He believed and did not consider the Natural age of his body when God told him he would have a son --Abraham was 99 years old --He considered the Promise not his body--He believed that God would deliver what He said He would -----and God did -----

This today is so important that for Believers we consider the Promises of God and have Dynamic Faith that can move mountains and not to rely on our situation or condition that says OH YOU of Little Faith ------We believers need to be an Abraham not a Zacharias -----

 

[paradox3]

11 NKJ Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, N)'>he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

unsafe says ---- the right side -----is the favorable side for God ---Jesus told the fishermen to cast their nets on the right side -----Jesus sits at the right hand of God

Yes, there are many biblical references for the right side. I noticed them as we read through Matthew's and Mark's gospels.

 

[Jaebius]

Thoughts on Dr. Luke's Gospel...

The third gospel was written by Dr. Luke. This physician was born and grew up in Antioch. There are evidences of his profession in the gospel as well as in the Acts. He'd received a good education and wrote elegantly, a fact which gives his books a high rank also as literature.

Dr. Luke was converted in Antioch by Paul. The latter esteemed him as a companion. Luke joined Paul on at least a part of his second and third journeys. Luke made the voyage from Caesarea to Rome with Paul, and was with him in Rome. During the second captivity Luke was again with Paul, for which the missionary gave thanks.

Outside of these facts nothing is known concerning Dr. Luke, either of his life's circumstances or of his death's time and manner.

Dr. Luke was a historian, to whom even critics yield a rank as regards trustworthiness. This is evident even in his gospel.

Dr. Luke was Paul's interpreter, as Mark was Peter's. His writings show that influence, in the expressions concerning the shameful person's justification before God.

The Gospel is dedicated to Theophilus, who was a Gentile nobleman living in Italy.

There are indications throughout the gospel that Dr. Luke wrote for a public familiar with the surroundings of Greek and Roman life in the empire's cities. He explains to his readers Semitic names and terms; he describes the situations of Nazareth, Capernaum, Arimathea and the Gadarenes, and he tells the distance of the Mount of Olives and of Emmaus from Jerusalem.

That Dr. Luke had Gentile missionaries in mind is evident also from the fact that he emphasizes that Jesus is the world's Savior, the Redeemer also of the Gentiles, and that the Gospel should be preached to all people groups. He pictures Jesus as the Friend of the poor.

In accordance with the gospel's purpose, there are features which should be noted: the medical descriptions' accuracy, the inspired hymns' preservation, and the prominence given to women.

Dr. Luke's gospel was written before 70 A. D., since there's no reference to Jerusalem's destruction, concerning which Luke gives Jesus' prophecy. Luke wrote his gospel in Rome, after Matthew and Mark, that is, about 67 or 68.

The outline of Dr. Luke's gospel is that of the other synoptic gospels. His introduction's divided into three sections, marked off by starting points in history. He next tells of Jesus' ministry in Galilee. Then he tells of Jesus' parables and talks. Finally, Luke narrates the story of Jesus' journey to Jerusalem and of his sufferings, death, resurrection, and ascension.

 

[Jaebius]

Thoughts on Luke 1:8-10...

It came about that Zacharias was serving in his office. His order was on duty in the Temple. So he went to Jerusalem for the week with his order. The Jews assigned the temple work which the priests had to do by casting lots. It fell to Zacharias one day to burn incense on the Holy Place's golden altar. He was in the Holy Place alone. The congregation was assembled in the courts, and the incense offering was prayers to God.