Seeler
Well-Known Member
I thought that your mother lived with you.
And they're off...the election thread
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I thought that your mother lived with you.
Mulcair says they are going to repeal Bill C51 - which many scholars and PMs are totally against and say it's the most dangerous bill ever passed in history. People should, and many are - taking those warnings seriously. It's no small thing. Why is it not discussed more? That may be the most critical issue ever facing Canada - to not turn us into a soviet pre-iron curtain style surveillance state. Without free democracy none of the other issues matter. All other policies are flexible and flip back and forth and can be negotiated, opposed, as long as we have a free society. All three opposition parties want to focus more on environment in Paris, for example. Who cares about balanced/ unbalanced budget. That's a shell game and a non issue compared to the principle of democracy and free expression. Greens also want to repeal it but they are not going to be the governing party. Justin's hedging his poltical bets, his chances of being voted for on either side of the centre - by not taking a clear stand and staying wishy washy about it. That tells me he is playing politics, wants to win, more than caring about democracy.
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Trudeau permenently lost a lot of support and respect in BC because of his stance on C51. It was at an event here that he said he didn't want to "make political hay" right before an election, by opposing it. He flat out amitted he didn't want to take a stand on either side - that it was a political strategy. People who supported him previously felt very disappointed.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Right, but I hope no one is going to place their vote based solely on C-51, even if it is an important issue for some. When you are choosing a government, you have to look at the whole picture or risk getting some surprises after election day.
Mulcair is going to repeal it.
Trudeau is going to amend it to add more oversight and a sunset clause.
May is going to repeal it.
So no opposition party is going to leave it intact.
I oppose C-51 but there are many other reasons why I'm likely to go Green or NDP. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole enchilada.
Mulcair is going to repeal it.
Trudeau is going to amend it to add more oversight and a sunset clause.
May is going to repeal it.
So no opposition party is going to leave it intact.
I oppose C-51 but there are many other reasons why I'm likely to go Green or NDP. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole enchilada.
Pontifex Geronimo 13
#walkaway
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...nner-in-ndp-plans-to-convince-centrist-voters
This is pretty great and should cause a lot of voters to take a few steps right of crazy.
This is pretty great and should cause a lot of voters to take a few steps right of crazy.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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I'd say that the Leap Manifesto is the first platform released this election that at least seeks to do more than tinker with the status quo. Too bad it is not a real platform and likely won't play much of a role in the election, save for the Conservatives using it to play the McCarthy card, for that reason. I don't support everything in it, but at least having a radical platform out there would generate more interesting debate and discussion. Right now, it's more in the vein of you say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to.
More accurately Seeler, we live with her. However, that's only in the winter and early spring. Mom won't be home before October 19th.
It is the most important issue because it affects how citizens voice their concerns about the other issues, in a democracy, from thereon, and democracy will be lost to us. I do not trust Trudeau on it, to make it important, or he already would've, and a sunset clause is not good enough. It's better than nothing but not good enough. I hope Mulcair stays ahead. I don't want to feel forced to vote liberal because of ABC but it might come to that.
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Mendalla
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For someone who is living hand to mouth or someone who is out of work because of the downturn in the oil patch, C-51 is small potatoes and we need to be mindful of that. Most Chinese middle class aren't speaking out against the oligarchy because they are getting rich and have jobs. Freedom and democracy are secondary to basic needs for most people.
Yes, scrapping C-51 and other Conservative security/justice bills is important, but so are the environmental and economic issues. If the only party in the election promising to repeal C-51 was also going to promote fossil fuels and eliminate EI and OAS, would you vote for them just on the C-51 issue? It's hypothetical and a reductio ad absurdum, but it is exactly why I avoid making decisions based on one issue. Fortunately, in this election, the parties that I align with on environmental and economic issues happen to be the same ones planning to dump C-51 so I'm in luck. I can actually ignore it as an issue and concentrate on what differentiates the Greens from the NDP on other issues.
(And, PS, I'd be willing to put money down that if Mulcair is in a minority situation, he will happily trade repealing of C-51 for Trudeau's support on other issues).
It wouldn't be if people realized it could impact their ability to have a voice about the very issues that affect them and their basic needs. That's why it is important. It's short sighted not to realize that. And the issues that affect people change but the need to be able to speak up in a democracy about whatever the issues are does not.
Mmm, I wouldn't put money on it. Maybe he'd convince Trudeau to scrap it.
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Graeme Decarie
Well-Known Member
to Bette TheRed - I dismiss the Greens for two reasons. There's no way they can win or even influence a coalition government. The other reason is that their focus is far too narrow. One cannot deal with the environment without dealing with other issues that affect it. For example, the power of big money has made Canadian democracy simply history. Big money owns the Liberals and the Conservatives - and all the private news media. It's not yet as bad as it is in the US. But we're getting close.
To Mendalla, I wouldn't expect a shift to the left if Mulcair loses and quits. The shift to the centre happened over 50 years ago with the creation of the NDP as a successor to the CCF. About a dozen years or so later, I still vividly remember a somewhat heated discussion I had about this with David Lewis who was a prime mover for the NDP.
He defended it because he said they had no money. They would never get it from big business as the other parties did. Their only hope was to get union support. But the unions were almost as right wing as the corporations. That meant the new NDP had to say goodbye to some of its major principles.
I thought it made more sense to stick with the CCF because an NDP with weakened principles was not going to do the job. And, in the more than 50 years since the NDP was founded ( actually, I think it was closer to 60 years ago), that concession to the unions has done little to help the NDP.
There's a fundamental problem with democracy. Elections cost big money. The people who have big money are the wealthy. And the wealthy largely control the news media.
The result is that we have a democracy that is called a democracy only from courtesy or ignorance.
To Mendalla, I wouldn't expect a shift to the left if Mulcair loses and quits. The shift to the centre happened over 50 years ago with the creation of the NDP as a successor to the CCF. About a dozen years or so later, I still vividly remember a somewhat heated discussion I had about this with David Lewis who was a prime mover for the NDP.
He defended it because he said they had no money. They would never get it from big business as the other parties did. Their only hope was to get union support. But the unions were almost as right wing as the corporations. That meant the new NDP had to say goodbye to some of its major principles.
I thought it made more sense to stick with the CCF because an NDP with weakened principles was not going to do the job. And, in the more than 50 years since the NDP was founded ( actually, I think it was closer to 60 years ago), that concession to the unions has done little to help the NDP.
There's a fundamental problem with democracy. Elections cost big money. The people who have big money are the wealthy. And the wealthy largely control the news media.
The result is that we have a democracy that is called a democracy only from courtesy or ignorance.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Oh, how depressing, Graeme. I'll vote Green against the depression, I guess.
The NP states it's a "plan to overthrow capitalism". I didn't read that, or anything particularly "crazy" in it - other than they're calling it a "manifesto" rather than a bunch of ideas for change. It's not some kind of communist manifesto - but the election propoganda machine might paint it that way so people don't consider what it says. Manifesto was a poor choice of words. Conjures up images of Che Guevara, but the document doesn't read like that.
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Yes. Me too. I will be changing my vote to Green now.
To add, apparently some "to the left of crazy" think Mulcair's a bad guy on par with Harper. So, it's all spin and more spin. I feel dizzy. I'm going to take 2 tylenol, wake me up when it's October 19th.
I'll take a strange stance ... I won't trust any of them cause once with power ... they'll be corrupted too!
Question all things is an old aziom ... from some ancient wisdom that those in the present claim but don't really believe as they say what is past is left ... a behind end ... as in ass? I'll bite ... like Macky's fish teeth under water? Echos of the old fisherman against the poe-L? It is a dark situation ... probably a large satyr ... as prince in dah night!
Question all things is an old aziom ... from some ancient wisdom that those in the present claim but don't really believe as they say what is past is left ... a behind end ... as in ass? I'll bite ... like Macky's fish teeth under water? Echos of the old fisherman against the poe-L? It is a dark situation ... probably a large satyr ... as prince in dah night!
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Mandalla - many of the poor, unemployed or underemployed, or minimum wage workers seem to blame the Harper government aand his economics for much of their problem. They won't be voting for Harper. (I rub shoulders with them and helped to feed over 90 of them from my church kitchen/gym yesterday - I don't talk politics as a rep of the church, but I listen.)
At the same time Seeler, the vast majority of people in my church are poor - and supporting Harper. Let's not stereotype the poor as belonging to any one political affiliation. We are independent people with myriad political ideologies.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Right, but not over C-51, which was what I was arguing: people in that situation aren't voting based on that issue.