An article "The church is killing its gay kids"

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unsafe said:
chanson your quote -----Here's an interesting thought: Say you're the parent of a high school student who is firmly in the closet and you don't even know. Which extracurricular group would offer your son or daughter the best support, a Christian club, or an atheist club? Which of those two clubs would you hope a potentially suicidal gay teen would seek support from?

This is my view

I would refer them to the ----Students working with Students

Agape Club ---The Agape Club is a Bible club where students come together and share their faith. It is design for students to become acquainted with others, build relationships, and encourage one another. Everyone is welcomed.

https://www.facebook.com/agapechristianclub

The LGBT community need to know through God's word that God loves them and they need to understand that they don't have to feel alone in this world even if their parents are against them --Their thoughts and feelings are valid and they can triumph over all the bull crap that so called Christians and non Christians and Religion can throw at them -----God's Grace is very powerful and can help them overcome all their weakness and that building a relationship with and accepting Jesus Christ with strengthen them in all areas of their life ------

They need to know that understanding what sin is and isn't and how sin affects our very being is important and understanding how God not humans deals with sin is very important to their existence ----they need to know that being sexual promiscuous is not acceptable in any group straight or gay --they need to know that there is a place for them in this world and they have to learn how to deal with the ridicule in a positive way ---they need support ---love and care just as all us humans do when we are depressed ----stressed out and feel unworthy to be on this planet .They need to know that helping others will help them to understand themselves better and give them self worth and strengthen their character --

Without God the LGBT community will be leaving themselves open to emotional destruction which can lead to suicide unless they are emotionally strong --

Good advice from Jazz ---

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Sorry unsafe ..... most christian youth group would be toxic poison to a LGBTQ person.
That is my point .... usually anything to do with christianity and the church is toxic to those that are LGBTQ.
These group would do the very opposite to what you are saying and offer only condemnation they call love.
Typically I would warn one of these young ones to stay away .....
Unfortunately they are far better off without.
These group do more to move a LGBTQ person towards suicide than away from it.
Thats the thing ....to find the strength and resolve most of the time we need we have to leave the christianity behind.
That is what I am hoping to help remedy.
 
airclean ..... let me reiterate something very very very important.
Being gay is NOT A CHOICE
Being gay is NOT A LIFESTYLE
Being transgender is NOT A CHOICE
Being transgender is NOT A LIFESTYLE
WE ARE CREATED THIS WAY
Whether or not you believe it that is what the overwhelming evidence shows.
There is not a single reputable study or research that shows otherwise.
Your beliefs and attitudes in this matter are the very ones that drive a young one to suicide.
Ask Leelah Alcorn.........
 
Two rambling responses to my question:
Waterfall said:
What exactly is an atheist club? because I'm thinking being a secular club doesn't necessarily mean that Christians/Muslims/religious persons won't be there does it? And being an atheist doesn't mean that one is necessarily exempt from being a bigot either, does it? I think there's a possibility that harm could be done within any organization. Sports for example, not always a venue that endorses/embraces a gay lifestyle, the army, service clubs (some), etc....

I think it's a proven fact that churches can also be included in this discrimination. Some churches will be more subtle....accepting the sinner but not the "sin", others will outright encourage abstinence...so different levels of intimidation. The part that must be hard for gay teens is determining how to figure out which churches are accepting of their lifestyle. You almost have to put a sign on the door, like a block parent sign, to reveal which churches are offering safety.

And of course, any place that claims to be accepting will possibly still have it's bigots. We just have to get the kids through those tough years until they develop a confidence that helps them to truly believe that they are loved. I really believe that it would be very important if you are a church offering affirmation to have some kind of group in place or at least host a discussion/activity group (with a competent leader) for these teens through the week.
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Seeler said:
Before reading any further comments -

It would depend upon the club.
Christian - it would depend upon the denomination, and within the denomination it would depend on which church. I can think of three UCC churches in my immediate vacinity where I would expect a closeted teeen would find acceptance and support. The problem is that it might be difficult for those outside the church to identify these churches. Two are presently working on becoming Affirming - another has an openly GLBT minister.
Atheist - I am not aware of any specifically atheist clubs in this area. If you mean simply any 'non church' group - like a sports team, science club, or debating club, or service organization like the FoodBank or Habitant for Humanity - I would imagine that they would find some people supportive, some hostile and threatening, and some indifferent - and that the club or organization ddidn't have this on their agenda. I know that the two students who rented rooms from me (both atheist - one anti-church and the other indifferent) were both very anti-gay.

So if I were a parent of a child who was withdrawn and seemed depressed and who I suspected might be GLBT-- I wouldd probably try to get him involved in some social activity - a sports team or a school activity, maybe the drama club. And I would also try to get him involved with the youth of my church - including eveents sponsored by the wider church (like Youth Forum at Conference). If I thought he was suicidal I would be phoning the suicide hot line and/or contacting his doctor or the medical profession.
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It doesn't matter what group or club of atheists. It doesn't matter if you don't know of one. No, being an atheist doesn't mean you're not a bigot. I enjoyed both your efforts to complicate the question in your favour, but almost everyone here knows, as does Rita, that if a hypothetical scared gay teen had to choose between a random group of atheists and a random group of Christians for support, they would be better off, on average, with the atheists.

It's a sobering thought, isn't it, that even many Christians realize that a potentially suicidal gay teen has a better chance at living if he was surrounded by atheists, than he would if he were surrounded by Christians.
 
RitaTG said:
airclean ..... let me reiterate something very very very important.
Being gay is NOT A CHOICE
Being gay is NOT A LIFESTYLE
Being transgender is NOT A CHOICE
Being transgender is NOT A LIFESTYLE
WE ARE CREATED THIS WAY

.
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--RitaTG I think you probably believe this . I how ever had a brother in Law for over 40 years that was gay. He acted much different than you say. He told me he was In love with me. Lucky for him I was some 6 thousand miles away at the time and was not a christian. Even then I wrote back an told him to think before he dose things . Look at were this goes . You could be hurt or even killed. I new his family. When I came home 4 years later . I married his sister.we were together 36 years. For these years My brother in law Ron would drop by about every 6 months.It Could be a guy that he had as a partner or a women. That he was living with. He seem to like them both..QUOTE



Whether or not you believe it that is what the overwhelming evidence shows.
There is not a single reputable study or research that shows otherwise.
Your beliefs and attitudes in this matter are the very ones that drive a young one to suicide.
Ask Leelah Alcorn.........

[/QUOTE] I think I just posted I don't believe. You see GOD made this old world . An that"s not how it works . If in the animal kingdom male makes love only with male, and female only with female . We will not long see this species on this earth. Now it has been this way since the beginning. GODS first commandment Gen 1:27-28

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

copyChkboxOff.gif
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

You could always try an change the meaning of this.
 
chansen said:
Two rambling responses to my question:


It doesn't matter what group or club of atheists. It doesn't matter if you don't know of one. No, being an atheist doesn't mean you're not a bigot. I enjoyed both your efforts to complicate the question in your favour, but almost everyone here knows, as does Rita, that if a hypothetical scared gay teen had to choose between a random group of atheists and a random group of Christians for support, they would be better off, on average, with the atheists.

It's a sobering thought, isn't it, that even many Christians realize that a potentially suicidal gay teen has a better chance at living if he was surrounded by atheists, than he would if he were surrounded by Christians.
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- I was just wondering chansen do you wash your mind out every day. I mean Really in what way do you believe a group of atheists. Could help a child who believes they may be gay? I use to know a lot of atheists was one myself .
 
It's not just me who would think that. A potentially suicidal LGBT teen would, on average, find more acceptance in a group of random atheists, than a group of random Christians. Rita agrees with me. You do not. Others, who make a habit of not agreeing with me, talk in circles to avoid acknowledging the obvious answer head on.

Christianity remains the greatest hurdle to widespread acceptance of, and rights for, LGBT people. Not all of Christianity, but enough that everyone can see it. The title of this thread is in response to an article "The church is killing its gay kids". Not directly, of course, but the greater church is playing a role, and is indirectly contributing to the suicides (and murders) of young people. Rita gave you examples. I mean, Christian groups from the US helped draft Uganda's "Kill the gays" law!

How could a group of atheists help a child who believes they may be gay? For starters, they wouldn't phrase it like that. They would accept the person's self-identity, and not start with the assumption that they are wrong about what they feel inside, because they don't care what the bible says on the matter.
 
If they are Christian teens they may appreciate more, a Christian group that does not discriminate against LGBT folks, and they might appreciate a group that has a spiritual component, if the peoples' connection to others there is more meaningful than a consensus about not believing in God - if they are feeling lost and rejected. I have heard chansen say atheist web forums are boring because everyone just talks about how they don't believe in God. Yet, in a group like this, where there are a lot of progressive Christians, many have found emotional support and a place to really express what they're feeling, at WC. Think of the difference between this place, and an atheist forum, in real life.
 
I'd invite any youth to come out and join the fun in my church's Youth Group. I've never met a more loving group of young adults.
 
Mind sets are like stone ... very hard to alter .. albeit there are alternate mind sets ... and within the stones??????

One has to appreciate some strange things to get some variation of God's mind set though ... a strange thing to mind sets of great "polity" set apart from the infinite perspective of God that sees all ... when in mono vision mortals see little ... this is a mono theists perspective when dis emanated a bit ... like scattering of chits? W all in our mortal state get we bits at a time and don't retain much if not attaining to Good's dark wisdom ... or stuff abstract to us in the Shadows as we back off from mortal positions.

CS Lewis called this Shadow Lands ... parrot-ie perspective that became know as parody in a mimic of the real thing to avoid truthful hurts about how little mortals know.

I find this humiliating amd something to make of Job of converting to something other ... an alternate cognizance ... or just gnu beta ...
 
Hi RitaTG Your Quote ------Sorry unsafe ..... most christian youth group would be toxic poison to a LGBTQ person.
That is my point .... usually anything to do with christianity and the church is toxic to those that are LGBTQ

You don't have to be sorry RitaTG ---if these are your feelings than that is the way you feel -----I very strongly disagree with your opinion ----God doesn't need us we need God and the LGBTQ community is no different -----your perception is limited as you are lumping all groups in with your bad experiences with Christians ------- your comment ----most christian youth group would be toxic poison ----you cannot speak for all youth groups and to deny teens by telling them that all Christians and all their groups are bad and toxic for the LGBTQ is not working and a disservice to them getting the support they need ---people are killing themselves ----God is necessary in the lives of all people and the LGBTQ community is no different -----they can't survive without God -----

God does not discriminate humans do ----and learning what His word says and understanding His word is very important in my view ----- I would certainly recommend they try a teen Christian group who has A LEADER with the Holy Spirit guiding them -------

Satan's job is to kill ---steal and destroy us in any way he can ----God is the only one who can stop the killing ------you can't ---I can't and no one else can -------the urge to die comes from the negative -----the urge to live comes from the positive -------who will win is the thing ---and the negative is winning ------the negative is not working ----try the positive ------don't discourage what could bring life -----

This is just my view -----
 
Thus god's advocate sneaks us back to where we come from ... do you know where?

In the book The Invention of Wings (a parody of a dream of escape of slavery to obnoxious concepts like owning and controlling another soul) one of the darker characters (metaphor) states that if you don't know where you're coming from you should at least know where you're going ... and The Great Escape is faced up to ... be the death of abstracts when a greater light goes off ... excuse my crude allegories ... done with intent so the truth would be hidden (this is done since the lesser people will not know by decree of law laid down by the Star Chamber (house of Lord's).

It has many chambers that the higher ups find invisible ... and thus they can't see what they believe is impossible ... piece divided between that lesser population as crumbs? Sort of like a mansion beyond or a hommoe as a myth ... where we all go in "common" when dead ... then pseudonyms like hommoe-common are not well understood when alien languages are confined by declaring the Bible to be writ in English Spin ... dizzying! Tis right in with far route understanding that demands some wonder and awe at "it all"! That's the (w)hole thing incorporated ...
 
Amongst animals, most species are known to have a subset of individuals who appear to be gay.

In many animal groups, only the alpha male and the alpha female procreate.

Airclean, accepting the normalcy and equal human rights of your LGBTQ neighbour does not mean that 100 per cent of the population becomes gay. You make the stupidest arguments I've ever had the misfortune to read.
 
In human form is stupid the norm ... considering a bible that early on in the story says ... the tree of knowledge is bad ... and that was accepted ... as truth?
 
Oh, yes, just the whole Eden story takes some very curious unpacking jobs to come to the conclusions at which the early Church Fathers arrived.
 
unsafe said:
Hi RitaTG Your Quote ------Sorry unsafe ..... most christian youth group would be toxic poison to a LGBTQ person.
That is my point .... usually anything to do with christianity and the church is toxic to those that are LGBTQ

You don't have to be sorry RitaTG ---if these are your feelings than that is the way you feel -----I very strongly disagree with your opinion ----God doesn't need us we need God and the LGBTQ community is no different -----your perception is limited as you are lumping all groups in with your bad experiences with Christians ------- your comment ----most christian youth group would be toxic poison ----you cannot speak for all youth groups and to deny teens by telling them that all Christians and all their groups are bad and toxic for the LGBTQ is not working and a disservice to them getting the support they need ---people are killing themselves ----God is necessary in the lives of all people and the LGBTQ community is no different -----they can't survive without God -----

God does not discriminate humans do ----and learning what His word says and understanding His word is very important in my view ----- I would certainly recommend they try a teen Christian group who has A LEADER with the Holy Spirit guiding them -------

Satan's job is to kill ---steal and destroy us in any way he can ----God is the only one who can stop the killing ------you can't ---I can't and no one else can -------the urge to die comes from the negative -----the urge to live comes from the positive -------who will win is the thing ---and the negative is winning ------the negative is not working ----try the positive ------don't discourage what could bring life -----

This is just my view -----
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I agree with you Unsafe

I was born of Italian parents in a Roman Catholic church, grew up in catholic schools, 10 yrs ago in an spiritual experience became born agin, attended Pentecostal churches , I know many many youth and grps, I know the parents, I also know many gay kids, one TG was my teacher. But i still have to find One, just one in my experience that Christianity would be Toxic. I find this to be prejudicial.

Furthermore if one reads the Op's article again, the author makes it clear for both sides of the homosexual issue, Trust God, Trust Grace, but now I feel like this thread has become a trump card holding up suicide gay teens to suppress the belief Homosexuality as sin , and if you do believe it do not speak it for you will be contributing to teen suicide.

first of all there are many attributing factors to suicide not just gay issues , secondly, suicide has one thing in common and that is mental sickness which has nothing to do with spiritual beliefs .
 
Hi airclean33 ---your quote ------The fathers and mothers of today , are the one's that must stand in front of there own child, and say (NO) this is wrong.

Proverbs 4:7 says Wisdom is the principle thing so get wisdom and in all our getting get understanding ----

This is just my view and belief ---you may think different


While I agree that we as parents should be teaching our children what is right and wrong ----If we the parents don't have a connection with God and many --many parents don't ----they are in this world ways of doing and thinking and will teach their children the same as they do and believe ------Unless the parents have the Holy Spirit they are away from God and Satan is their god according to scripture -----

Ask yourself these questions ----

Is God responsible for babies born deformed some born with both male and female genitals -----Is God responsible for children being born with cancer ----heart problems ----spinal bifida -------mental and physical disabling conditions and confusion in gender and wanting to be with the same sex etc from an early age -----if you say yes then you are in fact blaming God for these conditions at birth and then your discarding God's word about how iniquity infiltrates the family ------If you say no that God is not responsible for children being born with these conditions then there is a reason for this happing ----and God gives us the reason ----in my opinion

God is not a God of confusion nor of imperfections ----- so why do these conditions occur at birth ???-------

Ask yourself ---why did God impregnate a virgin---- no male sperm was allowed ---Why ???-----Jesus was born spotless ---holy-- no sin residue ----Adam messed up ---he was in charge ----it is the male sperm that is the bad seed and through it the sin nature is passed on ----

You either believe this scripture or not ----we can either try to understand it or not that is up to us -----

Exodus 34:7------Numbers 14:18 ------Only when we accept Christ is our iniquity and sin put to rest ---- you will notice it says fathers--visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children- it doesn't say mothers and fathers -----

And this is not to be confused with the scripture Deuteronomy 24:16ESV / ---This is talking about sins that each one commits --this is different than iniquity --being passed on

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

So for me knowing this --a person at a young age who feels different in their bodies or has an attraction for the same sex could certainly be born with these tendency ----by and through iniquity being passed on ---and the parents being ignorant of God and His word are just as confused and some are hurt by the child's choice ---and most Christians are also ignorant as to this in scripture in my view

God Bless Brother
 
BetteTheRed said:
Amongst animals, most species are known to have a subset of individuals who appear to be gay.

In many animal groups, only the alpha male and the alpha female procreate.
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an yet animals live free of conscious choice , indicating Humans are created a higher order of being
 
BetteTheRed said:
Amongst animals, most species are known to have a subset of individuals who appear to be gay.

In many animal groups, only the alpha male and the alpha female procreate.

Airclean, accepting the normalcy and equal human rights of your LGBTQ neighbour does not mean that 100 per cent of the population becomes gay. You make the stupidest arguments I've ever had the misfortune to read.
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-- Betty you really don't know me. I am a man that before GOD changed me .For you to tell me you were a gay person would be danger"s to you. This was before of course GOD changed me. Now I would just ask if you would like a cup of tea, and let's sett and talk. When we were done if you still felt the same way, when we were done taking. I would just say find . May GOD be with you and walk you always.May you always find yourself in light.
 
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