Extrabiblical Evidence about Jesus in the First 2 Centuries

[Waterfall]

Jesus - a real human leader? Check. Usher in an age of peace? Check.

Human, as in not God or divine. Jews find the Christian concept of God becoming Human repulsive as God is above and beyond Human limitations.....according to them. Of course a Christian would counter that God is capable of anything.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is "love" not a human incarnation ... but a mire emotion to the Romans that prefer hate and war?

Then how does a human god incarnate; sort of brute?

The trend continues ... alas set some of us in fits of giggles about how little we know about the human psyche of love in itself!

 

[Jaebius]

I'm not liking this age of peace, Jae. More people have been murdered in Jesus' name than have ever been in any practical way saved.

It's so because the majority of people are still following the dark powers and principalities who hold the world kidnapped. Nevertheless Bette, Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom, won victory over death through his work on the cross, and made it possible for people to have peace with God.

 

[Jaebius]

Human, as in not God or divine.

Jesus was 100% human.

Jews find the Christian concept of God becoming Human repulsive as God is above and beyond Human limitations.....according to them.

Not all Jews Waterfall. Messianic Jews would disagree.

Of course a Christian would counter that God is capable of anything.

Technically capable, yes, he is omnipotent. However, he limits himself. He will not act against his own character.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? With your belief system, you could say no other.

 

[Jaebius]

Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? With your belief system, you could say no other.

I could say other. I have freedom in Christ.

However, I will stay with the faith God gave me.

 

[Luce NDs]

What's darker than the spirit of emotions in the heart of a man god (less a few Q'loos) and then these attributes get the spark to write a story and cause chaos amount the wee people that make up the sum of the paradigm ... an integral curve ... an upright support for suppressing Joies and curiosity in researching god in other places from a Romantically inspired book like the Vulgate?

Considering the similarity of the Hebrew "B" and v/w ... Omah god is that a haw sir? Similar to the Greek Nous ... one operated by a fey and flighty god essence ... dark angels? They operate in the night ... assisting doctrines of scroo wops ... and thus you 'Ave ID as Maria!

 

[Luce NDs]

Now with a bit of Levite in the Shadow ... could a mortal man learn something about hormonal deficits in young women that terribly affect men as grave force? The spark goes on like a candle in the brae-Zus ...

 

[Mystic]

And, O assumption burdened ducker of honest questions, where do you get the idea that Jesus would bring peace on earth in our time?

 

[BetteTheRed]

I could say other. I have freedom in Christ.

However, I will stay with the faith God gave me.

Right, and Godde gives different gifts, and different kinds of faith, to different people. I have faith, but it doesn't look too much like yours.

 

[Jaebius]

Right, and Godde gives different gifts, and different kinds of faith, to different people. I have faith, but it doesn't look too much like yours.

God gives saving faith through Jesus Christ our Lord. That being said, it is possible that we perceive of said faith differently. I would add - neither of us perfectly.

 

[BetteTheRed]

God gives saving faith through Jesus Christ our Lord. That being said, it is possible that we perceive of said faith differently. I would add - neither of us perfectly.

"Saving" is a meaningless concept to me. (But you'd be right - perfect isn't my style; enthusiastic would be more like it.)

 

[Jaebius]

"Saving" is a meaningless concept to me. (But you'd be right - perfect isn't my style; enthusiastic would be more like it.)

Why "meaningless?"

 

[Mystic]

That's fine, Jae, because you're a Christian. But if you're not a Christian, then the use of the religion's sacred scriptures as evidence for your beliefs is circular. .

So when you allude to your son's faith journey, we should dismiss your report as circular? It is overly simplistic for you to explain away Gospel testimony as circular that can be connected with eyewitness testimony.

 

[Luce NDs]

And, O assumption burdened ducker of honest questions, where do you get the idea that Jesus would bring peace on earth in our time?

Can't say it is heiros gamma ... a dark thingy ... some say private humus ...

With all redactions ... could saving be mistranslated into salving, or the unguent mode ... and thus we miss the multitudinous rub? Now for people knowing everything is this odd or just a pint to prove "nothing" ... and the one receiving the rub was well laid out to rest?

Some even hint such massage fringes on prostitution ... OH ... did that get de Light one in trouble with the fixated on roué? Really messes up the etude in satyr if there is not freedom for diversity in understanding and ability to cause chaos and other emotional extremisms ... that the alternate freedom loving would like uncontained ... and thus out ... there between me and my far out eternal god ...

 

[Luce NDs]

So when you allude to your son's faith journey, we should dismiss your report as circular? It is overly simplistic for you to explain away Gospel testimony as circular that can be connected with eyewitness testimony.

Is this a broad-based go round?

Consider the illustration of "O" as a representative of nothing, nothing be a condition devoid of passion, and thus nothing is God and this is the ethereal vacuous entity that supports light without alteration of course ... and thus it went off.

Have you ever seen a person with that appearance of nothing, totally wiped or obviously impacted by God and nothing else? There you have it the ... lack of proof of nothing!

 

[revjohn]

There is a huge difference between imposing and indoctrination.

There can be. I am not convinced that there must be.

I've not said that children wont pick up what their parents believe in, but making them kneel and pray, or go to church, or saying grace at dinner, or telling them that a sky daddy is watching them is indoctrination and abuse.

That is your subjective opinion. Would it extend to include the allegations that religion is responsible for all of the worlds wars? Would it extend to describing all who are religious as being intellectually stunted? When opinions such as those are what our children pick up how have they not been indoctrinated? Doctrine is not necessarily religious right? Any opinion, policy, principle or position taught or advocated becomes doctrine.

Children should be allowed to be children.

Who prevents children from being children? How does religion force children to not be children? And if religion forces children to grow up too quickly why are religious individuals thought to be childish or ignorant?

It sounds quite contradictory.

Exactly, Because you yourself were indoctrinated into the cult you yourself do the same to your children such is the nature of indoctrination,

And when you share opinion, policy, principle or position with your children are you not also indoctrinating?

it would be pretty poor indoctrination if the victim knew they had been indoctrinated.

Indeed it would be. So, have you been indoctinated or are you free from having your thinking controlled in this regard?

Never said that the child should be brought up atheist, my point is there should be a neutral position, not simple either or.

And what is this neutral position? Agnosticism or something else?

No there are only people claiming they were atheist,

No True Scotsman fallacy it is then.

Without a blow to the head or a major trauma in a atheists life, there is no way they would become theist. that is the only way it happens else it just doesn't make sense.

That is quite the doctrine. Major Head Trauma is the only reasonable explanation of an untrue atheist becoming a theist. So just to keep score. The only way to become religious is via indoctrination. Converts to theism without head trauma were not true atheists to begin with and Converts to theism with head trauma are dismissed as being intellectually disabled and not properly able to reason.

Especailly when the indoctrinated, are indoctrinating the children. but sadly they know no better.

I suspect that is true.

With children being able to decide for themselves the choice is to remain exactly as you are or become theist there is no either or.

Since your initial claim was that atheism is the default and that children should have a choice you necessitate removing children from the default of atheism to place them in an agnostic ground from which they may choose. And yet, the indoctrinated parent (be they theist or atheist) will not be able to create that neutral space.

Neutral is the default position.

This seems like you shifting goal posts.

We are all born tabula raza " a blank slate" so technically we are all atheist at birth.

That was you December 20, 2015 at 2:52 pm

It is only referred to as atheist by the theist.

Well since it was you who suggested it is atheist I have to conclude, that you have experienced some major head trauma or, you were never a true atheist.

Which as I said in an earlier post is a negative label imposed on those who don't believe in your particular brand of god or any god for that matter.

The label is often used as a pejorative just as atypical is the perjorative of things not fitting the designation of typical. Of course it becomes a relative thing doesn't it? A theist refering to an atheist is assigning a negative value. I don't believe that an atheist referring to anyone as a theist is assigning positive value.

Tecnically we are born neutral and as such without god which means atheist to the theist. I'm only using the term to get my point across.

Wouldn't the technically neutral be some point between the theist and atheist position. You are suggesting that the neutral to white is black and that isn't flying for me so much as the traditional grey does.,

This is exactly why indoctrination should not be allowed.

And yet by starting from either the theist or atheist rather than an agnostic position we will be imposing a doctrine of one form or the other.

Because they would also know it was their choice and their choice alone.

Except that by your response they wouldn't be able to choose they'd only be able to experience major head trauma to gain a religious experience.

It would not matter to me, it would be solely their choice. I would be happy that they were happy.

But it does matter to you and you would speak against anyone who dared to erect a prohibition against what you claim does not matter to you. Which gives away that it actually does matter to you. And you will also share, along the way that you are not opposed to same-sex marriage or multi-hued marriage. Which is you stating a position and giving permission.

If you don't mind I'm not going to respond to the conversations that you are having with blackbelt 1961, waterfall or Pr. Jae.

 

[revjohn]

Wow, you actually presume that these texts do not imply what I say they obviously imply?

This surprises you? Have I kept it a secret that I don't trust you? And knowing that I do not trust you you are amazed that I don't take your word, or your understanding of God's word, as Gospel.

Wow indeed.

Yet you offer no alternative explanation?]

As of yet I haven't. My hands have been kind of full. Your impatience doesn't translate into any sense of hurry for me. In fact, it actually has the opposite effect.

Make of that what you will. I've already dealt with you claiming I debunk what I have not even attempted to debunk.

Your argument with me appears rest more on your imagination than any actual statement I have made.

I am seriously making the claim that you don't grasp how the grace of God works in His church

I didn't think you were doing it for giggles. Since I don't put much stock in your claim this repetition of allegation ruffles no feathers.

and I will demonstrate the basis of this charge.

Knock yourself out. Try to do it without saying "You seem." When building the case for my belief try actually quoting me saying what I believe or try and find an instance of me saying I really don't believe what I say I believe."

But first I want to give you a chance to explain yourself.

Well, that would be the decent course to take so you can wait till I am ready to devote time and attention to that or you can float another figment of your imagination and try to pass that off as who I am or what I am about.

I don't think my reputation here will suffer much at your hands.

 

[Mystic]

.Actually as you know, some of my examples come from books by widely recognized seasoned prayer warriors/. My own experiemces and testimonies of friends who have blessed me are not offered as anything close to proof, but rather as incentives to explore or start their own prayer groups to experience the thrill of their own experiences of grace. Second hand spirituality developed from the testimony of strangers is not usually transformative. If there is one question I want to nurture in posters' minds, it is this: if the paranormal experiences Don has posted are valid, how then should I pray and what kind of church should I attend? I appreciate the diverse contributions of other pastors who post here and think a lot of their posts are helpful. I am glad skeptics like chansen, mendalla, dreamerman, and pavlos take the time to post here. chanson has used less ad hominens against the more conservative site members lately and I get where he is coming from. You I experience as truly haughty and patronizing in your replies; so I respond to you with unvarnished honest candor because I suspect your brand of Christianity is harmful to your congregation. I will use no ad hominems in my debate with you, but, when I find the time after Christmas, I will target you with a new thread. whether or not you continue your long delayed response.

 

[dreamerman]

Mystic said "I am glad skeptics like chansen, mendalla, dreamerman, and pavlos take the time to post here. chanson has used less ad hominens against the more conservative site members lately and I get where he is coming from."

Dreamerman says well as long as you are happy I guess that is all that matters eh. Carry on then.