An article "The church is killing its gay kids"

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@unsafe - something can be the result of the fall and yet not be sinful. My epilepsy isn't sinful. My friend's blindness and my other friend's deafness aren't sinful. These things simply are.
 
Experience of these things can change your opinions ... and thus the human blindness to eternal concerns ... a pain of learning?

What's the point a Dunn's thing?

Is a mortal to know himself inside out as supported by the surrounding forces?
 
unsafe said:
You can all say what you like---belief is everything here and that was my main goal and my concern in my Original Question Post ----it is not at all about homosexuality being a gift or not it is about which side it comes from the Spiritual Nature side or the Sin Nature side -----The fall of mankind and the nature we are born with from that fall tells us it is not a gift ---it is a result of the fall and comes under that Sin Nature we are born with and we are in fact away from God and controlled by that sin nature until we accept Christ and have our nature changed -----So For Followers of Christ and belief in His word homosexuality has nothing to do with God it is connected to the fall of man and the Sin Nature ---Iniquity ---weakness that is carried on from generation to generation if the Nature of the parents are not changed ---------BUT if you don't believe in the fall of mankind ----then to those people it is a gift to them from God cause they believe they are born with God ----So it makes a big difference as to the belief and I was not understanding why RitaTG and BetTheRed were saying they feel they are blessed and it is a gift from God to be LGBTQ ------BetTheRed has confirmed that she does not believe in the fall and so for me that was the enlightenment I needed -----

My other concern is for the young people who are told that being LGBTQ is a blessing and a gift from God because of their belief and not disclose that just maybe there is another side ---a Spiritual Nature that is in place and lead them to a person who can tell them the difference and let them then decide the Right side ---Sin Nature or Spiritual Nature for themselves not just have people lead them down a road that is the wrong way -

I am appalled that it has been said there is no patience to keep going over things ---this thread is about young people killing themselves because they are LGBTQ we say we have no patience to keep on until we can find out ways to stop this ------The Ministers and the church should have all the patience and time to spend on this issue -----The Human Nature and the Spiritual Nature should be discussed and brought to the light so that these young ones have a choice and are lead not just in one direction but are schooled in all directions and by doing this lives could be or just might be saved -----So Patience is vital and needed on this issue ------in my opinion ------no matter how many times it has to be said and gone over -----and any Minister or church who has a problem with no patience should not be in God's House in my opinion
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I'm confused on your feelings about this subject. Could you please clarify? As a gay person, are you living as a gay person in a homosexual relationship yourself? If not is it because you feel it is a sin, if you are, what are your understandings for doing so?
How were these things handled when you were a young teen?
 
unsafe said:
it is not at all about homosexuality being a gift or not it is about which side it comes from the Spiritual Nature side or the Sin Nature side
Click to expand...

And I have tried to answer that question for you as best as I can. I consider homosexuality neither a gift nor a curse. I do not believe homosexuality is a result of the sinful nature, although some homosexual practice may be the result of the sinful nature - such as homosexual activity conducted outside the boundaries of marriage, or homosexual activity conducted with a minor.

unsafe said:
I am appalled that it has been said there is no patience to keep going over things --- this thread is about young people killing themselves because they are LGBTQ we say we have no patience to keep on until we can find out ways to stop this ------The Ministers and the church should have all the patience and time to spend on this issue
Click to expand...

Let me then rephrase what I said to make it clearer. Were I to be speaking to an LGBTQ youth I would have all the patience in the world to explain my viewpoints and to listen to their story, and to do so over and over again. Were I speaking to an adult who had an honest desire to explore the issues surrounding the rate of LGBTQ suicide with the intent of finding ways of lowering the rate of LGBTQ youth suicide I would have all the time in the world for that conversation. What I lack the patience for is repeatedly spelling out at length my position on the sinful nature of humanity to someone such as yourself who has repeatedly said that they aren't the least bit interested in actually hearing opinions that disagree with theirs, and who have repeatedly said that they will not change their mind no matter what arguments are presented to them, that they are not open to changing their mind and that it is impossible to change their mind, and who repeatedly and flippantly in thread after thread dismisses attempts at real conversation with "we think different is all."

So let me say - NO THAT'S NOT ALL! If you're really seriously interested in the appallingly high rate of LGBTQ suicide and in finding ways to lower it more than you're interested in regurgitating viewpoints that are based on at best extremely questionable interpretations of Scripture then get real. It is the very views you spout about homosexuality as a curse, homosexuality as a consequence of the fall, homosexuality as sin that reinforces the suicidal thoughts of kids who are struggling to find a way of accepting who they are. As I've said I don't think of homosexuality as either gift or curse. I simply think of it as a part of who some people are; a part of some people's identity. I think of it as natural. I don't think of it any more as gift or curse any more than I think of brown hair as gift or curse; blue eyes as gift or curse, freckles as gift or curse, large feet as gift or curse, etc., etc., etc. It's simply a part of who and what some people are. Is that clear enough for you to understand?

But let me go into more depth about Scripture.

The hammer passages from Leviticus are largely irrelevant as a specific code of conduct because, as I've said many times, Gentile Christians are not and never were under the Law of Moses. That Law was given to Israel. Paul acknowledges that Gentiles do not have the written law, and are therefore under the law written in their hearts - ie, conscience. Conscience, guided by the example of Jesus, requires that we live in love (defined not as emotion but as action) and with respect for and offering dignity to the other. Sin is that action or thought which is not loving or respectful toward others, and which does not grant them dignity. Paul does seem to deal in a few places with issues surrounding homosexuality (loosely defined, because it was not understood the same way in ancient times) although many translations prefer to interpret Paul as speaking of sexual sin or sexual perversion rather than specifically homosexuality. Nevertheless, it's undeniable that Paul does speak of people who were engaging in same sex sexual relations. The question, in the light of the teachings of Jesus, is why he was so appalled by same sex sexual relations. There was a time early in my Christian walk when I, too, saw homosexuality as a sin and accepted that what Paul wrote about homosexuality 2000 years ago was exactly transferrable to today's world. But the more the Holy Spirit wrestled with my conscience and the more closely I sought to follow Jesus and accept his example, the more I found myself struggling with this question. One thing that I realized was that even though most of the references to homosexuality in the New Testament are from Paul, Paul actually (although many have the opposite impression) wrote very little about sex or sexuality at all. Most of what he did write about sex or sexuality actually comes from 1 Corinthians, a letter which is a response to a letter the Corinthians sent to him asking for guidance on certain questions of morality. Paul had spent significant time preaching in Corinth. The impression left by the fact that the Corinthians had to write him later to ask about such issues suggests that in his preaching he hadn't bothered to deal with such questions. He proclaimed crucifixion and resurrection. He proclaimed grace. He assumed that the Holy Spirit would guide the consciences of the Corinthians to choose how to behave. There's no reason to believe that Paul's preaching and teaching in other places wasn't similar. He did not preach or teach a code of conduct, or law. He preached grace. He believed the Holy Spirit would guide the consciences of those he preached to, and that this would result in them adopting behaviours which were faithful to the desire of Jesus.

In any event, in the light of Jesus' teachings, what did Paul find so appalling about homosexuality? In my view, it wasn't that it was "homosexual." It was that, in that society, homosexuality activity could not take place within any type of covenanted or blessed relationship, since same sex marriage was unknown, or that it had to take place on the side among those who were already married to other partners. Homosexuality was sexual sin to Paul in the sense that it was either fornication or adultery (or possibly promiscuousness). It had to be either fornication or adultery (and possibly promiscuousness.) There was no other option. It was an abuse of human sexuality not because it was homosexual but because it simply could not be lived out within a faithful covenant.

I now believe it to be at least an open question as to what Paul's view of homosexuality would be today, in a society in which homosexuals are allowed to marry. In my opinion he would be accepting of same sex marriage because marriage would remove the "sinful" aspect of homosexual practice that caused him the most concern. I believe that would take away much of the stigma surrounding homosexuality. I believe that if we understood Paul's writings in that way (as I believe they were meant to be understood) we might go some way toward reducing the self-loathing that must fill some LGBTQ youth as they have it repeatedly drummed into their heads by some churches and pastors that their very identity is an abomination to God, which surely results in the appallingly high rate of suicide among LGBTQ youth.

Is that a sufficient response to your questions?

But, I know, "we think different is all."
 
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I've just had a thought about the original theme, what if homophobic churches were required to be "adult only" churches? Bit like an admission to a bar, or a strip club. If you're an adult, you can believe what you wish; if you're a child, we'd rather you all started with a belief that you were equally valuable humans, no matter what your eye colour, race, gender/identity, ethnicity, etc.

(P.S. I suspect that revsdd is a pretty good preacher...)
 
revsdd your quote ----Is that a sufficient response to your questions?

Great response ---at least you gave your belief and that in itself makes it easy for others to understand your stance on this subject --we are not in agreement with all of what you say but you believe what your believe and that is fine by me -----I am a gay person who has been there and for me it is very important for all views to be given and allow people to accept Christ and be directed by the Holy Spirit in their process of finding their way in the LGBTQ community ---but first they have to know there is Christ and there is hope and they can have a great life following God and His word ----I am proof of that -----they don't have to kill themselves and feel rejected even if the church is against them -----When your with Christ you have His Power ---Grace ---to help you to lead a life of His will not our will -----The truth will set you free not deception --or blindness -----

And as far as scripture goes ---for me it is God's word ---and you or no one else will change me on that -----I follow what is in the word to live my life and it has done me very --very --well --The Bible TELLS US HOW TO LIVE ---a happy ---healthy ---peaceful ----joyful --stress free life ---depression free -----anxiety free and suicide free ----- the young LGBTQ community should have the option of deciding if they want a happy life or a life full of strife-- conflict -- confusion --rejection etc ----

I leave you with this scripture ----John 8 ---Jesus is speaking -----The Truth Shall Make You Free ---the Gospel is the truth in my book

Read chapter here ---https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8;31-36&version=NKJV

The Truth Shall Make You Free

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him,“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. HowcanYou say,‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them,“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever,buta son abides forever.36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


And you are soooo right we all think different is all ----but when it comes to kids killing themselves because they are different we better start thinking God and His word in my opinion ----I wish someone had of told me when I was young the truth ---I wouldn't have gone through what I did-- I would have chosen God's path way back when ----I am just so grateful that in my later years I found Him and followed His ways not my own ----I have a beautiful partner and a great life ----32 YEARS AND COUNTING --
 
dreamerman said:
Well that didn't take you long. I thought giving your word was like a promise and not easily broken. You would think that could be classified as sin in a biblical context but I would just say your word is a little weak at least in this case.
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Yes dreamerman I do not like to say I won't . Then having to change my mind. I told RitaTG I wouldn"t post here on this Thread , because what I was posting seemed to be hurting RitaTG.I took note though , someone else was questing my posts, also it seem to make no difference's as the thread still seemed to keep going the same way. Now I was just wondering Mister I can Judge you . What was your reason for posting what you just posted?:whistle:
 
Waterfall your quote ---- I'm confused on your feelings about this subject. Could you please clarify? As a gay person, are you living as a gay person in a homosexual relationship yourself? If not is it because you feel it is a sin, if you are, what are your understandings for doing so?
How were these things handled when you were a young teen?

This is just my belief --

I am living with a partner for 32 years now ---my belief is that if sin is not dealt with ---- Iniquity see below ----is passed down from generation to generation so iniquity is different than sin ---Iniquity is Not Sin -SEE BELOW ---It is the character of the sin --and for me this makes sense -----you can read this it explains it ----Generational Curses
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http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/generational_curses.php --------

I feel that through no fault of mine I was confused about my gender ----I was a girl but I didn't like girl things ---I played baseball ---hockey ---I like to climb trees ,rocks etc ---- I didn't know why ----I tried to be a girl --frilly dresses etc but it wasn't me -----I supressed my inner confusion and I was depressed and unhappy ---didn't do well in school etc ----I couldn't figure myself out this went on for years -----I left my home town and tried to be a girl ----I put aside my boyish ways for a while and met a man got married to be a regular girl but it didn't work ----I became very depressed and angry ----I then met a woman who also was married and we started spending time ---no sex just time together ---For the first time I felt alive when I was with her -----We then had a decision to make ----and it was hard ---We Both accepted Christ and have a great life -----So I feel that through no fault of mine but through iniquity that was passed on I was in bondage to identity confusion and when I accepted Christ I am no longer in any bondage to anyone I am free ----free from past --present and future sins and free from the bondage of iniquity and free from people bondage -----I don't believe God is against a loving relationship ---but I do think God is against us just going from person to person having sex at our will and call it trying to find a partner or doing it cause we want to or it feels good ----The Holy Spirit will help a person find the right person to spend life with and it will be the right person -----I wish I had known what I know now in my teens I'm sure it would have impacted my ways ---- and given me a clearer mindset as to my gender confusion --

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
/
‛âvôn
1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
1a) iniquity
1b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
1c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity
Part of Speech:noun masculine
Relation:from H5753


Sin and Iniquity
What is the difference between sin and iniquity?
https://www.learnthebible.org/sin-and-iniquity.html
 
unsafe said:
Waterfall your quote ---- I'm confused on your feelings about this subject. Could you please clarify? As a gay person, are you living as a gay person in a homosexual relationship yourself? If not is it because you feel it is a sin, if you are, what are your understandings for doing so?
How were these things handled when you were a young teen?

This is just my belief --

I am living with a partner for 32 years now ---my belief is that if sin is not dealt with ---- Iniquity see below ----is passed down from generation to generation so iniquity is different than sin ---Iniquity is Not Sin -SEE BELOW ---It is the character of the sin --and for me this makes sense -----you can read this it explains it ----Generational Curses
spacer.png
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/generational_curses.php --------

I feel that through no fault of mine I was confused about my gender ----I was a girl but I didn't like girl things ---I played baseball ---hockey ---I like to climb trees ,rocks etc ---- I didn't know why ----I tried to be a girl --frilly dresses etc but it wasn't me -----I supressed my inner confusion and I was depressed and unhappy ---didn't do well in school etc ----I couldn't figure myself out this went on for years -----I left my home town and tried to be a girl ----I put aside my boyish ways for a while and met a man got married to be a regular girl but it didn't work ----I became very depressed and angry ----I then met a woman who also was married and we started spending time ---no sex just time together ---For the first time I felt alive when I was with her -----We then had a decision to make ----and it was hard ---We Both accepted Christ and have a great life -----So I feel that through no fault of mine but through iniquity that was passed on I was in bondage to identity confusion and when I accepted Christ I am no longer in any bondage to anyone I am free ----free from past --present and future sins and free from the bondage of iniquity and free from people bondage -----I don't believe God is against a loving relationship ---but I do think God is against us just going from person to person having sex at our will and call it trying to find a partner or doing it cause we want to or it feels good ----The Holy Spirit will help a person find the right person to spend life with and it will be the right person -----I wish I had known what I know now in my teens I'm sure it would have impacted my ways ---- and given me a clearer mindset as to my gender confusion --

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
/
‛âvôn
1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
1a) iniquity
1b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
1c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity
Part of Speech:noun masculine
Relation:from H5753


Sin and Iniquity
What is the difference between sin and iniquity?
https://www.learnthebible.org/sin-and-iniquity.html
Click to expand...

unsafe - what I hear you saying is that what you're really against is fornication.
 
And I could completely get behind that. To believe that sexuality might remain sacred within the bounds of a deeply committed relationship has some resonance with me.

But I just don't get how the relative gender of the participants in said deeply committed relationship would have any bearing.
 
unsafe said:
Jon71 -----Your Quote ------It is so sad that you and others can't accept God's will in making humanity in the diversity that he did, including being gay.

So what about the other diversity Groups you say God Created ------surely the LGBTQ is not the only one ----you can't say one without the others--If that is what you truly believe -----

So your Ok with adults who are just pursuing their sexual desires with minors and calling it loving Jesus -----cause these people are only following their sexual desire like the LGBTQ community -----and your saying it is OK for people to pursue their loving sexual desire to have sex with animals and that both of these are OK in God's eyes and not a sin -----and of course there is S&M and that is OK as well by God -----
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A false analogy to slander gay people by comparing them to pedophiles and bestiality. Either you believe this which makes you a fool or you know it's false which makes you a liar.
 
unsafe said:
revsdd your quote -----Having sex with minors is substantially different than a loving homosexual relationship between adults

Your all ducking the question ------is homosexuality a gift from God or a gift from the fall of man ------which is it ------and can we separate the fall of man from our sin nature -and say homosexuality is a gift from God ----just like all the other groups could claim ------Morally the other groups could claim the same---it is a gift from God scenario ----- what is good for one group is good for all others they could claim

So what you are saying is it is OK for the LGBTQ GROUP but it is not for any other group because what they do is not in the name of love -------even though ----God's word says sexual immorality is undesirable -----and lists homosexuality as a sexual desire that is undesirable in God's eyes ----

So here is the question to anyone ????---------Can we separate the original sin with the nature we are born with-- that is the sin nature ????---to pursue our worldly sexual desires we wish to pursue outside of God's plan according to scripture and say we are born that way and doing it in the name of Christ and say His Blessing is upon us and those sexual desires are not sinful in the eyes of God so therefore we are not doing it in sin -----and that includes all sexual desires that God says in His word that defiles a man (person)----There is only one sexual desire that I have read in God's word that is good in God's eyes and that is between a Man and a Woman who become one flesh through marriage -----Mark 10 :8 -----So what do you tell the young ones about why they are different and are born that way ????
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Homosexuality is an innate trail like skin or eye color. It is with us at birth and nothing will change that. The next time you hold a newborn remember there is about an 11-12% change that child is gay and perhaps about a 1% chance the child is transgendered. Regardless nothing in the world you do will ever change that any more than you could make a black baby white or a brown eyed baby have blue eyes.
 
unsafe said:
You can all say what you like---belief is everything here and that was my main goal and my concern in my Original Question Post ----it is not at all about homosexuality being a gift or not it is about which side it comes from the Spiritual Nature side or the Sin Nature side -----The fall of mankind and the nature we are born with from that fall tells us it is not a gift ---it is a result of the fall and comes under that Sin Nature we are born with and we are in fact away from God and controlled by that sin nature until we accept Christ and have our nature changed -----So For Followers of Christ and belief in His word homosexuality has nothing to do with God it is connected to the fall of man and the Sin Nature ---Iniquity ---weakness that is carried on from generation to generation if the Nature of the parents are not changed ---------BUT if you don't believe in the fall of mankind ----then to those people it is a gift to them from God cause they believe they are born with God ----So it makes a big difference as to the belief and I was not understanding why RitaTG and BetTheRed were saying they feel they are blessed and it is a gift from God to be LGBTQ ------BetTheRed has confirmed that she does not believe in the fall and so for me that was the enlightenment I needed -----

My other concern is for the young people who are told that being LGBTQ is a blessing and a gift from God because of their belief and not disclose that just maybe there is another side ---a Spiritual Nature that is in place and lead them to a person who can tell them the difference and let them then decide the Right side ---Sin Nature or Spiritual Nature for themselves not just have people lead them down a road that is the wrong way -

I am appalled that it has been said there is no patience to keep going over things ---this thread is about young people killing themselves because they are LGBTQ we say we have no patience to keep on until we can find out ways to stop this ------The Ministers and the church should have all the patience and time to spend on this issue -----The Human Nature and the Spiritual Nature should be discussed and brought to the light so that these young ones have a choice and are lead not just in one direction but are schooled in all directions and by doing this lives could be or just might be saved -----So Patience is vital and needed on this issue ------in my opinion ------no matter how many times it has to be said and gone over -----and any Minister or church who has a problem with no patience should not be in God's House in my opinion
Click to expand...


A couple of weeks ago I saw a segment on "Religion and Ethics Newsweekly" (on PBS) about transgendered people and the church. This included a transgendered man saying that he personally considered being transgendered a blessing from God. While I look at it more matter of factly, as not necessarily either a blessing or a curse, just a fact of life like having hazel eyes or being left handed, if he does view it as a blessing then who can say that for him at least it isn't.
 
unsafe said:
Waterfall your quote ---- I'm confused on your feelings about this subject. Could you please clarify? As a gay person, are you living as a gay person in a homosexual relationship yourself? If not is it because you feel it is a sin, if you are, what are your understandings for doing so?
How were these things handled when you were a young teen?

This is just my belief --

I am living with a partner for 32 years now ---my belief is that if sin is not dealt with ---- Iniquity see below ----is passed down from generation to generation so iniquity is different than sin ---Iniquity is Not Sin -SEE BELOW ---It is the character of the sin --and for me this makes sense -----you can read this it explains it ----Generational Curses
spacer.png
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/generational_curses.php --------

I feel that through no fault of mine I was confused about my gender ----I was a girl but I didn't like girl things ---I played baseball ---hockey ---I like to climb trees ,rocks etc ---- I didn't know why ----I tried to be a girl --frilly dresses etc but it wasn't me -----I supressed my inner confusion and I was depressed and unhappy ---didn't do well in school etc ----I couldn't figure myself out this went on for years -----I left my home town and tried to be a girl ----I put aside my boyish ways for a while and met a man got married to be a regular girl but it didn't work ----I became very depressed and angry ----I then met a woman who also was married and we started spending time ---no sex just time together ---For the first time I felt alive when I was with her -----We then had a decision to make ----and it was hard ---We Both accepted Christ and have a great life -----So I feel that through no fault of mine but through iniquity that was passed on I was in bondage to identity confusion and when I accepted Christ I am no longer in any bondage to anyone I am free ----free from past --present and future sins and free from the bondage of iniquity and free from people bondage -----I don't believe God is against a loving relationship ---but I do think God is against us just going from person to person having sex at our will and call it trying to find a partner or doing it cause we want to or it feels good ----The Holy Spirit will help a person find the right person to spend life with and it will be the right person -----I wish I had known what I know now in my teens I'm sure it would have impacted my ways ---- and given me a clearer mindset as to my gender confusion --

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
/
‛âvôn
1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
1a) iniquity
1b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
1c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity
Part of Speech:noun masculine
Relation:from H5753


Sin and Iniquity
What is the difference between sin and iniquity?
https://www.learnthebible.org/sin-and-iniquity.html
Click to expand...


Everything in this post seems to back what I've been arguing for which is to treat all people equally. Adultery is a sin whether you are gay or straight as is messing around with kids. A loving faithful marriage is a blessing from God whether gay or straight. I know several same sex couples and their marriage is just as blessed by God as my opposite sex marriage is. Why have I had the impression that you are anti-gay rights? Have I read it wrong? Do you believe that consensual sex between two adults of the same gender is a sin? Do you believe that you were made a loving and inerrant God? It feels like there's a contradiction somewhere and I can't pinpoint it.
 
Is everything a curse or blessing dependant on which side of the fence separating intellect for emotions you sit?

In equity or the dampened scales would one be in the midst like Raehab ... and thus life swings by a thin red string ... a ley line in the san (or without) ... tis an ancient perspective ...
 
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