An article "The church is killing its gay kids"

[RitaTG]

Its the usual sort of thing Bette that illustrates the dangers of this sort of fundamentalist thinking.
By the way ... I do not lump all fundamentalists together and charge them all with this.
There is the sort as we see here that do so much damage to their captive young ones.
Yes .... captive .... as a young person living under their parent's roof they so very often do not have a choice as to where they go to church. Further ... they are compelled to... And then they have to live it at home...
Leelah Alcorn ...... there is a very powerful example....

 

[airclean33]

Pontifex ... are you going to get around to answering my questions regarding your views on sin I posted earlier?

Pontifew Geronimo--Post this---

The church exists to bring people to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. Although I don't know this for a fact, I suspect that EVERY person in my church has some sexual sin in their past that would be considered comparable to one of the sins I just made up. Yet they all sit there in the knowledge that if they repent and turn to Jesus they will be saved from the wrath of God.

If a person or group want to set up the false paradigm that if you identify as L,G,B,T, or Q you are as sinless as Jesus himself and have no need of salvation because you've got it covered - They are the ones killing them, but not just for this life but for eternity.

The lost will only ever find life in Jesus. Not in a secular club. I would think someone contemplating suicide is lost. My church is open to L,G,B,T,Q, and the 3 sinners I made up above. They will all get love and counselling in line with a biblical worldview. No favouritism. We all start out lost.

Airclean-- You go blind? ,Or is it you don;t want to see? I know I had sexual sin in my life before I confessed" and began my walk with Christ. We are just sinners RitaTG saved by Grace. He that hung on the cross.That person who was perfect gave His life ,so we who were in sin. Could be perfect as He is. All Glory is GODS.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Correct, Rita, I don't believe I used the word fundamentalists. I don't particularly care where one stands on the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc. (as an aside, and it's off topic on this thread, it's been my experience that theology amongst our LGBTQ neighbours is curiously orthodox on a lot of other points). There are members of more tolerant congregations who hide equally ugly theology. I used "of your ilk" to refer to a very specific theological point, the one that's "killing the kids".

 

[Pinga]

If you define sex out of marriage as a sin, then go for it. I don't agree, but you hae made a level playing field.
If you define sex within marriage between two loving individuals regarding of gender as sinless then go for it, you have a level playing field

If you define sex within marriage between two people of the same gender as sinful, but define sex within marriage between two people of differing genders as not sinful, then....you & i are in serious disagreement, and it is these approaches that cause pain, and death in our young adults.
If you define sex outside of marriage between two people of the same gender as sinful, but define sex outside of marriage between two people of differing genders as not singful....then you & i are in serious disagreement, and it is these approaches that cause pain and death in young adults.

 

[RitaTG]

airclean ... once again ...let me try to be even more clear...
Why do LGBTQ persons feel so lost and distraught often to the point of suicide in your sort of church?
BECAUSE YOUR ATTITUDES AND THEOLOGY IS DRIVING THEM THERE!!!!
All the rest of the verbiage and platitudes that you spool off only makes it worse.
CONDEMNATION .... condemnation just because they are born that way .... not for any other reason.
I KNOW
I tried for decades in a conservative evangelical church to try and pray this away.
I was so down on myself and don't you dare ever insinuate I was not sincere enough, devout enough, tried hard enough.
I did it all ..... and all this sort of smarm you are spooling off now is the very same stuff I was told and tried so hard to believe and live and perhaps I would overcome this.
IT WAS AND IS WRONG!!
"Just trust Jesus .... just give it all to him" ... that actually works if you do it right...
I finally did ... and here I am

 

[airclean33]

....as for you airclean ..... although I strongly disagree with your theology and viewpoint and often find your posts personally disturbing I do not see you in the same light as Stephen Booth.
Now on to your post.....
I expect this sort of close minded theology from you .....
I find you a great example of the sorts of religious attitudes that contributes to the death of LGBTQ kids.
Thank you for that much....

--Wow have you ever got it wrong. I wish that all those children would be saved. I am not the one that saves RitaTG it is Christ Jesus. I would wish even you saved RitaTG The GOD I follow, I know Loves those children, and you RitaTG.There are how ever many that GOD has sent forward to help. I pray ears are opened, and eyes will see one day.The death I pray for RitaTG. Is of self, that you and they, may live a new life in spirit with a body made from Heaven . That you walk in, an with the living GOD. Your Father.

 

[Pinga]

If you define sex out of marriage as a sin, then go for it. I don't agree, but you hae made a level playing field.
If you define sex within marriage between two loving individuals regarding of gender as sinless then go for it, you have a level playing field

If you define sex within marriage between two people of the same gender as sinful, but define sex within marriage between two people of differing genders as not sinful, then....you & i are in serious disagreement, and it is these approaches that cause pain, and death in our young adults.
If you define sex outside of marriage between two people of the same gender as sinful, but define sex outside of marriage between two people of differing genders as not singful....then you & i are in serious disagreement, and it is these approaches that cause pain and death in young adults.

Airclean33, as I dont' follow your posts and rarely participate in the same threads, can you help me to understand your beliefs by telling me where you fit in your definitions per the statements above.

 

[RitaTG]

--Wow have you ever got it wrong. I wish that all those children would be saved. I am not the one that saves RitaTG it is Christ Jesus. I would wish even you saved RitaTG The GOD I follow, I know Loves those children, and you RitaTG.There are how ever many that GOD has sent forward to help. I pray ears are opened, and eyes will see one day.The death I pray for RitaTG. Is of self, that you and they, may live a new life in spirit with a body made from Heaven . That you walk in, an with the living GOD. Your Father.

The very sort of condescending smarm that kills.....
Lets see if you dare to be clear....
Do you want them "saved" from being gay?
Do you want them "saved" from being transgender?
Please .... specific answers ... if you dare....

 

[Hermann]

And we really need a "Dislike" button. This tripe is about a feminist who turns into a "real" wife; didn't get very far, didn't need to.

Yes, a "dislike" button would be great!

 

[airclean33]

airclean ... once again ...let me try to be even more clear...
Why do LGBTQ persons feel so lost and distraught often to the point of suicide in your sort of church?

QUOTE
Airclean--I think I understand this RitaTG. [/QUOTE]

airclean ... once again ...let me try to be even more clear...
Why do LGBTQ persons feel so lost and distraught often to the point of suicide in your sort of church?
BECAUSE YOUR ATTITUDES AND THEOLOGY IS DRIVING THEM THERE!!!!

QUOTE--Airclean--
Once more I don't believe what you posted here. The Bible tells me RitaTG that if you come to Christ an are ready to be saved . by following Him out of your sins , You then have
but ask Him to forgive an repent your sins , and He will help. You cannot bring your sins with you though.I have seen drunks stop drinking that day. I have seen those who chased women around stop . I have seen a thief changed to a person I now trust.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="RitaTG, post:
All the rest of the verbiage and platitudes that you spool off only makes it worse.
CONDEMNATION .... condemnation just because they are born that way .... not for any other reason.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE Airclean I have already said we were all born in sin.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE="RitaTG, post:
I KNOW
I tried for decades in a conservative evangelical church to try and pray this away.
I was so down on myself and don't you dare ever insinuate I was not sincere enough, devout enough, tried hard enough.
I did it all ..... and all this sort of smarm you are spooling off now is the very same stuff I was told and tried so hard to believe and live and perhaps I would overcome this.
IT WAS AND IS WRONG!!
"Just trust Jesus .... just give it all to him" ... that actually works if you do it right...
I finally did ... and here I am

[/QUOTE] Airclean Have you ever tryed asking Two or more Born again Christians to come to your house, and pray with you well laying on Hands?As I said to you before RitaTG I know GOD loves you , as you are right now. He wants you to come, else I would not be talking to you as I am. Believe He Love"s you an come" see if He DOSE, Have GOD for your guest
tonight.

 

[RitaTG]

QUOTE
Airclean--I think I understand this RitaTG.

QUOTE
BECAUSE YOUR ATTITUDES AND THEOLOGY IS DRIVING THEM THERE!!!!
All the rest of the verbiage and platitudes that you spool off only makes it worse.
CONDEMNATION .... condemnation just because they are born that way .... not for any other reason.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE
Airclean---We who follow Christ Jesus all know that we were sinners I have already told you how as a Born a Mail . We feel about a women. I have read that men thing of females every 5sec. We do not how ever act on this . Nor do we kill are self"s. If we can not.The Apostle Paul said . It would be better if we were married to one woman , than BURN.
That you believe you were born gay . I don't believe.You may of had those feeling . But then you acted on them. Now you have sinned, like I sinned. You acted on your thoughts. Mine was going to bed with a women I was not married to.[/QUOTE]



QUOTE
I KNOW
I tried for decades in a conservative evangelical church to try and pray this away.
I was so down on myself and don't you dare ever insinuate I was not sincere enough, devout enough, tried hard enough.
I did it all ..... and all this sort of smarm you are spooling off now is the very same stuff I was told and tried so hard to believe and live and perhaps I would overcome this.
IT WAS AND IS WRONG!![/QUOTE]

QUOTE
Airclean---You do not get rid of SIN. Did no one tell you it is Christ Jesus that rids you of making that mistake? He and He alone has the power to help you.It is by the hand of GOD that we are saved, an none other.RitaTG we with out Christ Jesus, are just sinners. We have no power to fight satan, he has defeated us already.

QUOTE
"Just trust Jesus .... just give it all to him" ... that actually works if you do it right...
I finally did ... and here I am [/QUOTE]

QUOTE
Airclean--That is not the teaching RitaTG. You must give yourself to Christ Jesus . You must be ready to say I really don't know the right way. Let Him who dose show you.As Jesus said come and follow me. I Am The Way The Truth And The Light.He has The Power to take on satan.[/QUOTE]



QUOTE--Airclean--
Once more I don't believe what you posted here. The Bible tells me RitaTG that if you come to Christ an are ready to be saved . by following Him out of your sins , You then have
but ask Him to forgive an repent your sins , and He will help. You cannot bring your sins with you though.I have seen drunks stop drinking that day. I have seen those who chased women around stop . I have seen a thief changed to a person I now trust.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE
All the rest of the verbiage and platitudes that you spool off only makes it worse.
CONDEMNATION .... condemnation just because they are born that way .... not for any other reason.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE Airclean I have already said we were all born in sin.[/QUOTE]


QUOTE-
I KNOW
I tried for decades in a conservative evangelical church to try and pray this away.
I was so down on myself and don't you dare ever insinuate I was not sincere enough, devout enough, tried hard enough.
I did it all ..... and all this sort of smarm you are spooling off now is the very same stuff I was told and tried so hard to believe and live and perhaps I would overcome this.
IT WAS AND IS WRONG!!
"Just trust Jesus .... just give it all to him" ... that actually works if you do it right...
I finally did ... and here I am

[/QUOTE] Have you ever tryed asking Two or more Born again Christians to come to your house, and pray with you well laying on Hands?As I said to you before RitaTG I know GOD loves you , as you are right now. He wants you to come, else I would not be talking to you as I am. Believe He Love"s you an come" see if He DOSE, Have GOD for your guest
tonight.[/QUOTE]
And there we have it!!!
BINGO!!!!!!!
Exactly the stuff that kills....
airclean ...... you are just another one telling me I didn't use the right formula ...
Always there is something else I should have done....
BALONEY!!!!!!!!!
CONDEMNATION!!!!
And that sickly sweet get saved stuff at the end!
You really don't know me nor do you know my relationship with God.
Perhaps you should take your own advice and repent.
If you are an example of what God expects and heaven is going to be like then like Bishop Desmond Tutu .... I don't want to go there.
Fortunately I don't see God as you do.
By the way .... this sort of attitude was driving me toward suicide once I shared with the leadership of the church I was in.
I finally left ..... like a heartbreaking divorce..... I had to leave the abusive controlling relationship.
Unfortunately the youth don't have the same way out...
Your theology is wrong .... wrong wrong wrong......
No amount of trying to explain is going to get through to a mind already made up and the walls up.
The attitude that kills .... well illustrated ......
This is indeed the stuff that kills....

 

[Pinga]

I cannot follow this thread....sorry, RitaTG. combination of bad posting, lack of quote structure, and languague.
@airclean33 , if you could respond to my post, that would be helpful to my understanding.

 

[RitaTG]

Typical with airclean Pinga...
I try my best to overlook it and sort through the stuff.
In my response I will bold and Italic from now on to help

 

[airclean33]

The very sort of condescending smarm that kills.....
Lets see if you dare to be clear....
Do you want them "saved" from being gay?
Do you want them "saved" from being transgender?
Please .... specific answers ... if you dare....
__________________________________________________________________________

Airclean--I wish them saved from acting on or following through on there gay thoughts .
As far as transgender goes it would be the same.To have thoughts come to you . I don't believe that"s a sin.
_________________________________________________________________________
Once again if we look at King David when did he sin. When he saw his Gens wife bathing ?Or when He took her to bed? Or when he had his Gen kill in battle.Please keep in mind GOD loved David really no more than He Loves you or me.

P_S I hope this helped.

 

[Pinga]

so, what you are saying is that there is a difference between gay & straight thoughts and action, which is all about the gender combination, and nothing about relationship.

That is not a loving God, nor is that an interpretation of scripture that I have any respect for.

RitaTG, given the above, I appreciate your attempt to show how this attitude still exists in the world, and the damage that it does to humanity.

peace, love & blessings to you, for your willingness to put yourself in such a challenging spot of addressing these items.

 

[revsdd]

Correct, Rita, I don't believe I used the word fundamentalists. I don't particularly care where one stands on the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc. (as an aside, and it's off topic on this thread, it's been my experience that theology amongst our LGBTQ neighbours is curiously orthodox on a lot of other points). There are members of more tolerant congregations who hide equally ugly theology. I used "of your ilk" to refer to a very specific theological point, the one that's "killing the kids".

I found your post interesting, Bette. Throughout my close to 30 years in the United Church I have often found that members of the LGBTQ community have a more orthodox theology in terms of their understanding of the nature of Jesus (their very Christ-centredness; their belief in both incarnation and resurrection) and in terms of their approach to Scripture than many others.

 

[Pinga]

RevsDD , do you think that is because those that have a less orthodox belief found it easier(?) to walk away when faced with the multiple challenges around inclusion. I am wondering about root cause regarding the differences you are seeing.

 

[revsdd]

RevsDD , do you think that is because those that have a less orthodox belief found it easier(?) to walk away when faced with the multiple challenges around inclusion. I am wondering about root cause regarding the differences you are seeing.

It's a good question. I've often wondered if it's the result of having to deal with being in an institution that isn't always welcoming of the LGBTQ community - so that, if you're going to believe in God/Christ, you better be darn sure of what you're believing. You don't have the time to be debating the nature of God; you need assurance about the nature of God. That's just a thought on my part. I'm not part of that community so all I can do is speculate what the theological dynamic is, and of course it's a generalization.

A good example of what I mean and of this phenomenon, though, might be the hymns of Sylvia Dunstan. Sylvia, until her sadly too early death in the early 90's) was a United Church minister and a member of the LGBTQ community (although I don't think it was called that back then) who also did some teaching at Emmanuel College. I got to know her because of her work at Emmanuel and because she was on the Education & Students Committee of Scarborough Presbytery while I was a candidate from there. She was very supportive of me, always taking the time to talk if I ran into her at Emmanuel. Her hymns are very trinitarian, very Christ-centred, and I suspect she probably had an influence on the community.

 

[RitaTG]

Airclean--I wish them saved from acting on or following through on there gay thoughts .
As far as transgender goes it would be the same.To have thoughts come to you . I don't believe that"s a sin.
_________________________________________________________________________
Once again if we look at King David when did he sin. When he saw his Gens wife bathing ?Or when He took her to bed? Or when he had his Gen kill in battle.Please keep in mind GOD loved David really no more than He Loves you or me.

P_S I hope this helped.

Thank you for a direct reply airclean.... and no your post does not help at all.
More of the usual false equating.....
Now for my position:
Being gay nor living out that truth is NOT a sin
Being transgender no living out that truth is NOT a sin
Either of these can be lived out in a good and wholesome way just like being heterosexual or cisgendered.
In my opinion the very same standards apply.
To not live out the wonderful truth in how we have been created is in my opinion denying what God has gifted us with.
God did not take away my transgenderism because it is not a curse but rather it is a blessing God bestowed on me.
For that I am profoundly grateful and I thank God every day for that precious incredible blessing.
This gift has brought me closer to God rather than pushing me away.
What the church tried to tell me was pushing me away and would have resulted in loss of my faith had I not realized what was going on.
I want the very same for the LGBTQ young ones rather than seeing their spirits crushed and destroyed.

 

[RitaTG]

For RevsDD and Pinga....
Regardless of whether the beliefs are more orthodox or less orthodox the trauma of rejection is the same.
Having to divorce oneself from a church family is distressing beyond words.
We carry with us the essences of the doctrine we grew up with.
I can tell you to have to face and work through those beliefs is a very emotional and scary challenge.
Many of us do not make it and either throw the whole thing out and walk away or it does us in and we become part of the 43%
For me .... I had to resolve this ..... it was literally a matter of life or death...
I have never shared that before.....