The Epicurean Dilemma (Paradox)

[Luce NDs]

Reminds me of Job, when God voluntarily allowed Satan to test his love for God by taking away all his riches and family, even though God knew Job would still love "God".
This is a very hard test for anyone to endure....

Doesn't there seem to be some ulterior goings on here that is hidden? Some digging required to understand ..

 

[WhyCzar]

why is there suffering in the world?
How have you answered this question for yourself?

I accept suffering as a natural part of life and death as it so happens when it comes to illness, aging, disasters, or accidents and so on.

People deliberately inflicting suffering on others, that is what still keeps me guessing.

That kind of suffering is evil personified and I do not understand it at all.

I have no fixed concept of what God is (or is not) so not a factor for me.

 

[Jaebius]

So when and how does God's vengeance come into play, then? Because I can't see how "dealt with sin justly" and "showing mercy to sinners" jibes with "vengeance", which is usually a personal anger aimed at destruction, often without regard for the cost to the person seeking vengeance (think Khan in The Wrath of Khan taking himself and the Reliant out to take one final shot at Kirk). People out for vengeance aren't merciful and are rarely, if ever, just. And if that's not what you mean by "God's vengeance" then maybe "vengeance" is the wrong word.

Human revenge, Mendalla, is driven by passion and disregards justice.

Divine vengeance's perfect justice's expression. God forgives because justice's demands are addressed.

The cross shows that God's vengeance against evil and His mercy toward sinners are resolved in the same act.

That's why Paul speaks of God's wrath and His love without contradiction

 

[Mendalla]

That's, um, not vengeance in any definition I know but you do you.

 

[Jaebius]

That's, um, not vengeance in any definition I know but you do you.

That's my point Mendalla.

You're defining VENGEANCE from sinful human behaviour's perspective and then assuming God must fit that definition.

If God's vengeance's just HUMAN REVENGE BUT BIGGER, then yes, it'd conflict with justice and mercy.

But orthodox Christian theo's never grasped divine vengeance that way. God's vengeance's evil's good punishment by a perfectly just judge.

Human revenge and divine vengeance aren't the same thing

 

[Luce NDs]

I accept suffering as a natural part of life and death as it so happens when it comes to illness, aging, disasters, or accidents and so on.

People deliberately inflicting suffering on others, that is what still keeps me guessing.

That kind of suffering is evil personified and I do not understand it at all.

I have no fixed concept of what God is (or is not) so not a factor for me.

Maybe because god cannot be determined or nailed down for unknown reason ... explaining a bit ... then Emperors, republics are synonymous with power which one side sees as corrupt ... leading us to have to deal with the waste a psyche enigma ... and Lord do we hate to think about it ... as an ultimate thing like a Black Hole where things went that aren't sort of ghastly determination ... phenomenal phantom !

 

[unsafe]

Human revenge, Mendalla, is driven by passion and disregards justice.------

Human Revenge is a Trap ----it handcuffs you to the Person who wronged you ----and you can't let go of the bondage your in to this person -----Human Revenge comes from EGO --the only justice they see is Retaliation --their safty measures come from worldly Dominance and Pride ----it takes away their Freedom and Peace of Mind ------


Freedom comes when you can Let Go and be Free of People Bondage --------and Leave Justice to God -------

 

[GordW]

Reminds me of Job, when God voluntarily allowed Satan to test his love for God by taking away all his riches and family, even though God knew Job would still love "God".
This is a very hard test for anyone to endure....

Job is a bit more complicated than many Christians tend to think. In this story the satan is not the adversary of GOd but rather part of the heavenly court, one whose role is to test people, The idea of Satan as a personification of evil develops separately and iirc later.

For the record I am not sure God comes off so great in the story of Job.

 

[Luce NDs]

And why did the great mystery send us here ... with some responsibility for the children? This may inhibit us from just doing as we please ...

Doing perfectly as we pleas seems imbalanced ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Job is a bit more complicated than many Christians tend to think. In this story the satan is not the adversary of GOd but rather part of the heavenly court, one whose role is to test people, The idea of Satan as a personification of evil develops separately and iirc later.

For the record I am not sure God comes off so great in the story of Job.

The vocation is complicated and humbles even God ... reason not to create excessively at one time?

 

[chansen]

For the record I am not sure God comes off so great in the story of Job.

Ya think?

 

[Luce NDs]

Ya think?

Forces a classification of Gods and polytheism ... as the children of God are disseminated and dispersed ...

 

[Mendalla]

For the record I am not sure God comes off so great in the story of Job.

Thing is, depending on how old this story is, it's not out of line with how gods and goddesses tended to be seen in ancient cultures. The deities in polytheistic faiths tended to be personified natural forces with the inherent chaos of both nature and human nature. And we know that historically, Yahweh seems to have originated in Mesopotamia as part of a polytheistic pantheon. So God not coming off so great in the story is just a reflection of the fact that these are human stories about human experience of existence using a particular deity as a reference point.

 

[Luce NDs]

Thing is, depending on how old this story is, it's not out of line with how gods and goddesses tended to be seen in ancient cultures. The deities in polytheistic faiths tended to be personified natural forces with the inherent chaos of both nature and human nature. And we know that historically, Yahweh seems to have originated in Mesopotamia as part of a polytheistic pantheon. So God not coming off so great in the story is just a reflection of the fact that these are human stories about human experience of existence using a particular deity as a reference point.

To me ... the idea is that God is an eternal puzzle that the closer you get to it the bigger the puzzle grows and thus a growing challenge. The opposite view is the level of false confidence achieved by declaring you know such a huge object. It is as if black and whit some going into it and some coming out in a state of chaos ... as is love when falling into the situation ...

Will we rise out of it as an experience to learn from? Such iss the forming challenge when in the clay form ... Jaer'd as in potter's field? Some very contained ...

 

[Waterfalls]

That's my point Mendalla.

You're defining VENGEANCE from sinful human behaviour's perspective and then assuming God must fit that definition.

If God's vengeance's just HUMAN REVENGE BUT BIGGER, then yes, it'd conflict with justice and mercy.

But orthodox Christian theo's never grasped divine vengeance that way. God's vengeance's evil's good punishment by a perfectly just judge.

Human revenge and divine vengeance aren't the same thing

Well we were supposed to be made in God's image......although I wouldn't consider divine vengeance as divine justice either....
Job did not commit any crime to even deserve this test IMO.......Perhaps Chaos sometimes just runs its course and we are helpless to avoid it until we choose to recover from it?

 

[Mendalla]

That's my point Mendalla.

You're defining VENGEANCE from sinful human behaviour's perspective and then assuming God must fit that definition.

If God's vengeance's just HUMAN REVENGE BUT BIGGER, then yes, it'd conflict with justice and mercy.

But orthodox Christian theo's never grasped divine vengeance that way. God's vengeance's evil's good punishment by a perfectly just judge.

Human revenge and divine vengeance aren't the same thing

So yeah, you're redefining vengeance by making it tied to who is getting revenge. I'm sure Donald Trump would say his vengeance (which he has taken on many opponents, often using the machinery of the state to do so) is different, too. As I pointed out in another post, the idea of gods and goddesses taking vengeance on their enemies predates Christianity and is really a remnant of the time when Yahweh was part of a polytheistic system where deities were treated as being quite human in many ways. You're just trying to modernize the idea of divine vengeance to justify the idea in an age where such deities no longer fit. And believe me, the folks who blame "sin" for natural disasters or terrible things happening to people don't see God's vengeance the way you do. They very much see it as the work of an angry God punishing the world for not playing by God's rules, which makes it morally no different from an angry human doing it for the same reason.

(God as the cosmic Donald Trump both scares and amuses me, by the way)

 

[Luce NDs]

So yeah, you're redefining vengeance by making it tied to who is getting revenge. I'm sure Donald Trump would say his vengeance (which he has taken on many opponents, often using the machinery of the state to do so) is different, too. As I pointed out in another post, the idea of gods and goddesses taking vengeance on their enemies predates Christianity and is really a remnant of the time when Yahweh was part of a polytheistic system where deities were treated as being quite human in many ways. You're just trying to modernize the idea of divine vengeance to justify the idea in an age where such deities no longer fit. And believe me, the folks who blame "sin" for natural disasters or terrible things happening to people don't see God's vengeance the way you do. They very much see it as the work of an angry God punishing the world for not playing by God's rules, which makes it morally no different from an angry human doing it for the same reason.

(God as the cosmic Donald Trump both scares and amuses me, by the way)

Has bloody teeth and orange in parts of the man ... nothing fresh, green and innocent about him ... does that picture a wild man with a certain rogue presentation regarding freedoms?

I couldn't say because he would roar at me ... so if logged is may be read in them future spirit ...

 

[unsafe]

Well we were supposed to be made in God's image...

I you do your research on how unbelievers retain being made in God's Image -----it will reflect an image of a CRACKED Mirror -----You were a made in a image that Reflected God but because now since the Fall that image in the Mirror is Distorited ----the perfect Mirror is now cracked viewing a Distorted Image -----

Our sin Natures has distorted our true Nature -----so while your made in God's image ---that Image is now Tainted -----and the only way to Fix it ==is to be brought back to your True Image ----and that is through accepting Jesus who took your distorted Image and brough your True Image back into Focus -----



After Receiving Jesus who is the Perfect Mirror is your true Reflection

 

[Mendalla]

And the Bible citations for that are? Because this sounds like an image some preacher dreamt up, not something from the actual Bible. (actually, I think I know the answer but still interested to hear what you say).

 

[GordW]

And the Bible citations for that are? Because this sounds like an image some preacher dreamt up, not something from the actual Bible. (actually, I think I know the answer but still interested to hear what you say).

I can not think of a passage that says we have lost the image of God in which we were created. We miss the mark for sure, we do not always live into who we were created to be but we are still ALL created in the image of GOd.