God Asked Abraham to do WHAT?!?!?!???

[Mendalla]

These Signs of the Ages are not just astrological beliefs but rather astronomical facts.

Um, no. They are astrological beliefs. In the realm of astronomy, the zodiac has largely become meaningless; a convenient way to name stars and locate them in the sky and nothing more. A million years ago, the constellations we know did not exist and a million years from now they will be gone again as stars move about the galaxy. Best example is Polaris, which we know as the north star but which did not hold that role even in classical times and will eventually cease to be it again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris#Role_as_pole_star sums it up pretty well).

Furthermore, the fact that they form any kind of pattern is concidental and due to perspective. In some cases, the stars of a given constellation aren't even close together in astronomical terms and only form a pattern due to how we are seeing them. From another angle, they might appear in a completely different pattern or even to be unrelated.

And what they symbolize is cultural. Not every culture has even defined the signs of the zodiac in the same way so your Age of Aquarius may be something very different to the Chinese or the First Nations.

 

[Neo]

Um, no. They are astrological beliefs. In the realm of astronomy, the zodiac has largely become meaningless; a convenient way to name stars and locate them in the sky and nothing more. A million years ago, the constellations we know did not exist and a million years from now they will be gone again as stars move about the galaxy. Best example is Polaris, which we know as the north star but which did not hold that role even in classical times and will eventually cease to be it again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris#Role_as_pole_star sums it up pretty well).

Furthermore, the fact that they form any kind of pattern is concidental and due to perspective. In some cases, the stars of a given constellation aren't even close together in astronomical terms and only form a pattern due to how we are seeing them. From another angle, they might appear in a completely different pattern or even to be unrelated.

And what they symbolize is cultural. Not every culture has even defined the signs of the zodiac in the same way so your Age of Aquarius may be something very different to the Chinese or the First Nations.

"In the realm of astronomy, the zodiac has largely become meaningless; a convenient way to name stars and locate them in the sky and nothing more. "
Are you serious? The zodiac contiues to be the apparent path of the Sun throughout the year and marks off the important, to our point of view, seasons of the year. I italicized the word "apparent" because this path is, granted, known to be an illusion. However the "effect" is the same and that is: from our point of view, the Sun appears to pass through each of the twelve constellations of the zodiac in one year. This is basic astronomy.

Also, the fact that Polaris is only the pole star for our generations is an effect of the procession of the ages. In 12,000 years the star Vega will be the pole star. In fact, this is another reason that egyptologist are beginning to believe that the pyramids were created between 12,000 and 10,000 BC, for only when you turn back the astronomical clock do the alignments between the pyramids and the heavens make sense.

I'm not defending astrology or denying astrology in my statements above. What I'm saying is that these passing of the ages can be used and have been used to mark the passing of time. The Bible is full of references to the stars, and especially the stars signs of the zodiac. From Genesis to Revelations, there are astrological references in each book. Only the foolish would or could deny such obvious references.

The measurements of these passing ages can be very accurate and confirmed by any astronomer, though most astronomers will argue as to the exact proportions and delineations of each sign, depending on whose zodiac you use. However, it's generally accepted that about every 2,100 years our Sun does appear to pass through another sign. Think of a spinning top, wobbling slowly in an arc. That's the vernal equinox retrograding backwards through a "Great Year", a year that takes about 26,000 of our regular years. Again, this is basic astronomy.

 

[Mendalla]

What I'm saying is that these passing of the ages can be used and have been used to mark the passing of time. The Bible is full of references to the stars, and especially the stars signs of the zodiac. From Genesis to Revelations, there are astrological references in each book. Only the foolish would or could deny such obvious references.

The measurements of these passing ages can be very accurate and confirmed by any astronomer, though most astronomers will argue as to the exact proportions and delineations of each sign, depending on whose zodiac you use. However, it's generally accepted that about every 2,100 years our Sun does appear to pass through another sign. Think of a spinning top, wobbling slowly in an arc. That's the vernal equinox retrograding backwards through a "Great Year", a year that takes about 26,000 of our regular years. Again, this is basic astronomy.

All of which fits under "a convenient way to name starts and locate them in the sky". You are simply using the position of the stars as a dating system, which is fair enough but also as arbitrary as any other dating system. The notion of "Ages" based on the position of the sun relative to the zodiac is only significant if you make it so. It is another form of calendar like a lunar or solar calendar. There are many ways one can measure time and this is one of them. Your post seemed to apply some kind of significance to the "Ages" that simply is not there without resorting to astrology.

 

[redhead]

I studied this story within various contexts and at length during my undergrad studies.... and all I could conclude was that it is an allegorical challenge; the leap of faith - Kierkegaardian approach And when you take that leap, which defies logic, you find compassion, love, caring and a sense of justice, in believing in a God who does not kill, and expects that HIS/HER followers will not kill. It is a troublesome story -but so are most fairy tales that we share with our children

 

[Neo]

All of which fits under "a convenient way to name starts and locate them in the sky". You are simply using the position of the stars as a dating system, which is fair enough but also as arbitrary as any other dating system. The notion of "Ages" based on the position of the sun relative to the zodiac is only significant if you make it so. It is another form of calendar like a lunar or solar calendar. There are many ways one can measure time and this is one of them. Your post seemed to apply some kind of significance to the "Ages" that simply is not there without resorting to astrology.

I admit that I do believe that these ages have a psychological influence on our psyche but that wasn't my point at all. My point was to provide a possible answer to Waterfall's question of what Christ could've meant when He said he would be "with us even unto the end of the age".

You say that I'm "simply using the position of the stars as a dating system", as if "I" personally just made all this stuff up, {smile}, and that "the notion of "Ages" based on the position of the sun relative to the zodiac is only significant if you make it so". Again, it was significant to the authors of the Bible, and this was the point I wanted to make re those time measurements.

***

The concept of a Zodiac, btw, and the influence that the Sun had on us as It journeyed It's way through the Zodiac, the "circle of animals", is probably one of the oldest, if not thee oldest concept of all religions. It should be considered whenever interpreting scripture. The fact that science doesn't believe in this influence anymore is irrelevant to what people used to believe.

The real question regarding the history of the Zodiac, I believe, and as you noted above, is how did a starting point come about? Why is the constellation of Aries the Ram, deemed the beginning of the Greater Year? In ancient Egyptian astronomy the stars of Aries were associate with one of their chief Sun gods, Amun-Ra, who in human form was depicted with a rams head.

***

As I said above, I personally have a different view on this whole subject, one that doesn't agree with today's science. I don't, however, believe that a constellation of stars can have a "direct" influence on us in one way or another. Rather I see a very old psychological "impression" of the zodiac burned into the mind of a very young Humanity. Which means the more advanced we become the less influence the stars should have on us. Which would be in line with the old maxim that says that "the stars incline, they do not compel".

One ship drives east and another drives west
With the selfsame winds that blow.
'Tis the set of the sails,
And Not the gales,
That tell us the way to go.
Like the winds of the sea are the ways of fate;
As we voyage along through life,
'Tis the set of a soul
That decides its goal,
And not the calm or the strife.

- The Winds of Fate by
Ella Wheeler Wilcox

 

[redhead]

it is ultimately a story about sacrifice, and it is the use of an OT story to justify a NT creation. If one believes I allegory as narration

 

[Hermann]

I think the story was meant to put an end to human sacrifice, and make animal sacrifice acceptable instead.

 

[Waterfall]

I think the story was meant to put an end to human sacrifice, and make animal sacrifice acceptable instead.

Of what use is any sacrifice (human or animal) to God who is the most powerful?

 

[chansen]

This thread really calls for an irony meter joke, but they're so overplayed as it is.

 

[chansen]

Of what use is any sacrifice (human or animal) to God who is the most powerful?

God likes the smell. Apparently heaven is great, and most everything is fantastic, but it just doesn't smell quite right. Needs more burning flesh.

Which, if you believe the stories, means God should really vacation in hell.

 

[Luce NDs]

I think the story was meant to put an end to human sacrifice, and make animal sacrifice acceptable instead.

Thus the bode dais and the mind goes on evading all that is the killer human ... this process of setting the mind free is known by some as a function of OBI to others an abstract ... or an imaginary dream ... and thus it is considered as if it isn't ... only a mental manifestation of weird images in-de-head and possible Bottom-like followings that are tacky ... leading to tale pinning!

Without the indeterminate parts ... non-curious types miss the extent of implicitly alterable ... thus the spirit of the right brain is left imagining things most wouldn't!

 

[Luce NDs]

And barbeques in church yards have the goods for all as long as the heir caste doesn't take ll the good chit!

This is a flaw in church hierarchy ... consider Elijah's children and their sense of entitlement to the better cuts ...

 

[Waterfall]

This thread really calls for an irony meter joke.

Yup

 

[Luce NDs]

Many cereous people do not see the humour in Gods way ... especially Ur dark side when dealing with the heh/chi/IT question and thus the grain of altruism in de boules ...

 

[Delightful Life]

my current favourite interpretation of the Binding of Isaac story is it is a tale of an old g_d, the one that abraham worshipped (since he grew up in a particular culture, who had their own deities), telling abraham to sacrifice his son, which was a common practice in his culture (and up on mountains), and then the 'new' g_d, shows his power by stopping this sacrifice

this also fits in with a narrative of the new g_d gradually changing the old ways of human sacrifice to animal sacrifice to veggie sacrifice to sacrifice of words...

it can also be poetry for the importance of being willing to sacrifice for something larger than yourself

 

[Hermann]

Of what use is any sacrifice (human or animal) to God who is the most powerful?

Oh, I just stated what I thought the Abraham story might have meant to convey to the people of that time.

An omnipotent God, of course, requires no sacrifice. Except, perhaps, the egocentric self submitting itself to the omnipotent God.

But then, if God is omnipotent, why does he not simply cause the individual to be subservient?

Yes, I know, free will: The omnipotent God gave us humans free will so that we can decide on our own to be subservient to God.


My slave never ceases to draw closer to me with devotions of is own free will.

-The Koran

 

[Delightful Life]

All of which fits under "a convenient way to name starts and locate them in the sky". You are simply using the position of the stars as a dating system, which is fair enough but also as arbitrary as any other dating system. The notion of "Ages" based on the position of the sun relative to the zodiac is only significant if you make it so. It is another form of calendar like a lunar or solar calendar. There are many ways one can measure time and this is one of them. Your post seemed to apply some kind of significance to the "Ages" that simply is not there without resorting to astrology.

"millionaires don't use astrology, billionaires do"
--jp morgan

when you have enough time you should take a gander at Cosmos & Psyche by Richard Tarnas :3 the man spent some 30 years researching the subject and the book is his distillation of his discoveries

look forward to reading your review of it

 

[Luce NDs]

Is subservience slavery when taken to excess ... polity? hus the wisdom is contained and lesser power according to avarice; the excess urge to control all things ... when such control is beyond mortals ... just a' myth! A' myth este'r .. as this becomes connected to some thing causing alteration! Some say this is Mos mole og-IHζ .. the self as completely miss under stood as fore in up right vertigoes beams ... often greener than appearance indicates ... lack of knowledge about embarrassing activity? Is this proper ... or just paternity attempting to provide unused souls as Bottom NDs? Some say Eeyore IT!