Interesting that we all continue to baptize with water yet John thought it should be the holy spirit and fire....how would one do that anyway?...and does that mean that water baptism isn't needed after Jesus?
The Status and Role of Women in Jesus' and Paul's Ministry
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Jesus authorized His own disciples to perform His baptisms even during His public ministry (see John 4:1-2).
GordW
Church-Geek-Oramus
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ANd the Risen Christ instructs "Go ye therefore and make disciples, baptizing them..." (Matt 28:19)
So was John the Baptist a Christian or did Jesus integrate baptism into his teachings from another "religion"?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
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There is no sign John was a Christian (some theorize he was an Essene, so sectarian Jewish) so I would tend to argue the latter. But ritual cleansing, literal or figurative, is common to many traditions so Christianity did not really innovate anything there other than how it uses it symbolically.
Jesus authorized baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)."
What other religion do you suppose baptism in the name of the Trunity would be?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
What she is really asking is where does John's baptism of Jesus fit into all this, given that it was arguably the model for baptism as a ritual?
IIn their own way both John's and Christian baptism are rites of repentance.
The more interesting question is why some early Christians like the 12 Ephesian disciples can still use John's baptism and have never even heard of the Holy Spirft (Acts 19:3-6). And how can it be that a missionary like Apollos coming from Alexandra knows only John's baptism, the baptism apparently used in the church at AlexandrIa in Egypt (18:25)?
The more interesting question is why some early Christians like the 12 Ephesian disciples can still use John's baptism and have never even heard of the Holy Spirft (Acts 19:3-6). And how can it be that a missionary like Apollos coming from Alexandra knows only John's baptism, the baptism apparently used in the church at AlexandrIa in Egypt (18:25)?
*2) PRISCILLA: THE BEST CANDIDATE AS THE FOUNDER OF THE CHURCH OF ROME:
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles owe them a debt of gratitude. Greet also the church that meets at their house Romans 16:3-5)."
Their house church was their missionary base for evangelizing Roman Jews. Their missionary efforts were apparently the foundation of Christianity at Rome.
Once they begin to make converts there, the Jews riot against them. Emperor Claudius does not understand the issue behind the rioting, and so in 48 AD he expels all Jews from Rom Rome to end the trouble. That expulsion is the reason why Priscilla and Aquila are forced to abandon their house church and flee to Corinth:
"After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them (Acts 18:1-2)."
The Roman historian Suetonius also refers to Claudius' expulsion of Jewish Christians from Rome. What is the significance of the fact that Priscilla and Aquila are the only Christian missionaries identified as part of this expulsion? Since this expulsion reacted to the founding of the Church of Rome, Priscilla and Aquila emerge as the best candidates as founders of the Roman church!
But in 4 of the 6 times this couple is mentioned in the NT, Prscilla is mentioned before her husband--an unprecedented fact in first century patriarchal culture. Her priority likely means that she was the active missionary, while Aquila financed her efforts through his trade as a tentmaker (Acts 18:3 -4).
If so, Priscilla emerges as the most likely candidate as the founder of the Church of Rome, but never got credit for it, probably because she is a woman.
Linus or Peter are identified as the first bishops of Rome, but Peter doesn't arrive in Rome until c. 64 AD. The Church of Rome was actually founded around 48 AD. when Priscilla was doing her missionary work there.
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles owe them a debt of gratitude. Greet also the church that meets at their house Romans 16:3-5)."
Their house church was their missionary base for evangelizing Roman Jews. Their missionary efforts were apparently the foundation of Christianity at Rome.
Once they begin to make converts there, the Jews riot against them. Emperor Claudius does not understand the issue behind the rioting, and so in 48 AD he expels all Jews from Rom Rome to end the trouble. That expulsion is the reason why Priscilla and Aquila are forced to abandon their house church and flee to Corinth:
"After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them (Acts 18:1-2)."
The Roman historian Suetonius also refers to Claudius' expulsion of Jewish Christians from Rome. What is the significance of the fact that Priscilla and Aquila are the only Christian missionaries identified as part of this expulsion? Since this expulsion reacted to the founding of the Church of Rome, Priscilla and Aquila emerge as the best candidates as founders of the Roman church!
But in 4 of the 6 times this couple is mentioned in the NT, Prscilla is mentioned before her husband--an unprecedented fact in first century patriarchal culture. Her priority likely means that she was the active missionary, while Aquila financed her efforts through his trade as a tentmaker (Acts 18:3 -4).
If so, Priscilla emerges as the most likely candidate as the founder of the Church of Rome, but never got credit for it, probably because she is a woman.
Linus or Peter are identified as the first bishops of Rome, but Peter doesn't arrive in Rome until c. 64 AD. The Church of Rome was actually founded around 48 AD. when Priscilla was doing her missionary work there.
Buat Priscilla does much more than serve as the apparent founder of the church of Rome. Paul celebrates her as a woman to whom the whole Gentile church owes her a debt of gratitude for her missionary service. Consider also her role in teaching Apollos:
;"He [Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue. Priscilla and Aquila heard him. So they invited him to their home. There they gave him a better understanding of the way of God (Acts 18:26)."
Note that, as usual, Priscilla is mentioned first as the instructor. This is the only instance in the NT of a woman presuming to instruct a man,--and a well-educated eloquent man at that--- in "the way of God."
;"He [Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue. Priscilla and Aquila heard him. So they invited him to their home. There they gave him a better understanding of the way of God (Acts 18:26)."
Note that, as usual, Priscilla is mentioned first as the instructor. This is the only instance in the NT of a woman presuming to instruct a man,--and a well-educated eloquent man at that--- in "the way of God."
Let's have some deductive speculative fun.
(3) The African, Simon, who carries Jesus' cross is strangely identified as "the father of Alexander and Rufus:"
"A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross (Mark 15:21).".
Who found out his name and, more surprisingly, the names of his 2 sons? In that world, a father is standardly identified as the son of his father. So the fact that we know about his sons "Alexander and Rufus" suggests that they are followers of Jesus. What makes this reference more intriguing is that Mark's Gospel was written at Rome and Paul sends greetings to Rufus at Rome, a cjty Paul has never visited:
"Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too (Romans 16:13).
Paul identifies Rufus' mother, as his own surrogate mother-- a rather touching observation. But Paul has never been to Rome.
So when and where did Rufus' Mom do this mothering of Paul? Well, if we can draw the natural inference that Rufus's Mom is Simon of Cyrene's wife,
then Paul was likely "mothered" by her years prior during the time he spent in Jerusalem. If all these inferences are correct, that would mean that Paul was "mothered" by the wife of the man who was forced to carry Jesus' cross, when a badly beaten Jesus could no longer do so!
!
(3) The African, Simon, who carries Jesus' cross is strangely identified as "the father of Alexander and Rufus:"
"A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross (Mark 15:21).".
Who found out his name and, more surprisingly, the names of his 2 sons? In that world, a father is standardly identified as the son of his father. So the fact that we know about his sons "Alexander and Rufus" suggests that they are followers of Jesus. What makes this reference more intriguing is that Mark's Gospel was written at Rome and Paul sends greetings to Rufus at Rome, a cjty Paul has never visited:
"Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too (Romans 16:13).
Paul identifies Rufus' mother, as his own surrogate mother-- a rather touching observation. But Paul has never been to Rome.
So when and where did Rufus' Mom do this mothering of Paul? Well, if we can draw the natural inference that Rufus's Mom is Simon of Cyrene's wife,
then Paul was likely "mothered" by her years prior during the time he spent in Jerusalem. If all these inferences are correct, that would mean that Paul was "mothered" by the wife of the man who was forced to carry Jesus' cross, when a badly beaten Jesus could no longer do so!
!
(3) PHOEBE
" I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a minister of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the leader/ benefactor of many people, including me (Romans 16:1-2)."
Phoebe was "a minister" of a church near Corinth whom Paul entrusted with the task of delivering and interpreting his Epistle to Romans to the Roman church. She is also a "ruler" (Greek: "prostatis")_or benefactor "of many," including Paul. In other words, Pual deferred to her leadership when in her house church. Paul uses the verb form of "prostatis" in 1 Thessalonians 5:12, where ir means "rule over."
Read this excellent article for a more detailed discussion of this impressive woman:
.https://thetextincontext.com/romans-16-who-was-phoebe/
" I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a minister of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the leader/ benefactor of many people, including me (Romans 16:1-2)."
Phoebe was "a minister" of a church near Corinth whom Paul entrusted with the task of delivering and interpreting his Epistle to Romans to the Roman church. She is also a "ruler" (Greek: "prostatis")_or benefactor "of many," including Paul. In other words, Pual deferred to her leadership when in her house church. Paul uses the verb form of "prostatis" in 1 Thessalonians 5:12, where ir means "rule over."
Read this excellent article for a more detailed discussion of this impressive woman:
.https://thetextincontext.com/romans-16-who-was-phoebe/
Find Phoebe's story a bright example of how God includes everyone.
In my Presbyterian church, we think of leadership as a job to help people, not boss them around. The Greek word "prostatis" has a lot of meanings, but when you examine it closely, it suggests kindness and care. The fact that Paul trusted her to deliver and explain his letter to the Roman church says a lot.
Ministry is taking care of a garden, where you look after every person. Real leadership grows when it comes from helping others. I love how the Spirit shows up in people who lead without making a big fuss. This idea supports the important jobs that many women have had in building the Church, and it tells us to stay open to all the different ways God shows grace.
Phoebe's story makes us think about what we do. We should accept leadership that puts caring about others first, instead of strict rules.
Let's be glad for what Phoebe did, as a reminder that the Good News is all about including everyone in ministry. Our ways of leading now are made better by the spirit of those exciting truths: that God's kingdom is based on love.
I wonder, how do you see this kind of servant leadership happening in our churches today? And how can we help everyone use their gifts so that we really show Christ's love?
Paul instructs us to" zealously strive for spiritual gifts," but does not specify how to do this.
One way I tried to do this as a minister was to give unlikely laity the chance to preach and run the service in my absence, when I had to attend conferences, etc. When I appointed someone shy and reluctant to do this task, the congregation uniquely identified with them, rooting for them and riveting their attention to every word. So this leadership strategy proved more spiritually productive than if I had just appointed an experienced lay preacher to be my substitute. This policy created enthusiasm and self-confidence in believers who might otherwise never have discovered their gifts. God can reveal one's spiritual gifts if and when the minister gives them opportunities to explore them.
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Which is more of the essence; wills or intellectual (know-how)?
This get easily out of whack with those that are mindless ... having not room for thoughts as the pyres gutted the edifice ... thus again ... the burnt earth syndrome! Those wishing for more war usually suffer from this psycho conflict ... no space up there as they believe everything is above board ... they miss about half the sphere ... and thus phere of the alternate's ide ... you cannot make this us as it is there buried, sacred in the mess of reality and virtue all screed up! Phered down? Not likely as the pious like to swing it and thus Jeeves, jitters and jigs ... in the shadow and out of sight! Dark Waves ... mysterious on sets ...
This get easily out of whack with those that are mindless ... having not room for thoughts as the pyres gutted the edifice ... thus again ... the burnt earth syndrome! Those wishing for more war usually suffer from this psycho conflict ... no space up there as they believe everything is above board ... they miss about half the sphere ... and thus phere of the alternate's ide ... you cannot make this us as it is there buried, sacred in the mess of reality and virtue all screed up! Phered down? Not likely as the pious like to swing it and thus Jeeves, jitters and jigs ... in the shadow and out of sight! Dark Waves ... mysterious on sets ...
(4) LYDIA: THE FIRST EUROPEAN CONVERT:
Paul's first effort at evangelizing Europe took him and his missionary companions to a women's prayer meeting by the little Gangites River just outside Philippi. The first European convert to Christianity was a wealthy businesswoman named Lydia. She became the leader and patroness of the first European house church:
12 "From there we traveled to Philippi, a Roman colony and the leading city of of Macedonia. And we stayed there several days.
13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14 ;One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us (Acts 1612-15).
I visited the traditional site on the Gangites River where Paul baptized Lydia. It was a lovely spot with white foaming rapids about 12 feet wide and a beautiful little shrine with icons and candles to honor the event. In front of the baptismal spot was a tiny set of ascending steps with benches where tourists could sit and meditate on the historical significance of this event.
Paul's first effort at evangelizing Europe took him and his missionary companions to a women's prayer meeting by the little Gangites River just outside Philippi. The first European convert to Christianity was a wealthy businesswoman named Lydia. She became the leader and patroness of the first European house church:
12 "From there we traveled to Philippi, a Roman colony and the leading city of of Macedonia. And we stayed there several days.
13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14 ;One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us (Acts 1612-15).
I visited the traditional site on the Gangites River where Paul baptized Lydia. It was a lovely spot with white foaming rapids about 12 feet wide and a beautiful little shrine with icons and candles to honor the event. In front of the baptismal spot was a tiny set of ascending steps with benches where tourists could sit and meditate on the historical significance of this event.
The university cours on Women and Religion that I taught for years attracted about 65 students a semester. Most enlightened Christian women are delighted to learn about the awesome leadership role and accorded dignity and status of women in the time of Jesus and Paul.
And I have already addressed your question in post 25..
And I have already addressed your question in post 25..