I refresh your memory about your glib statement implying that Catholics rely on "works" for their salvation, this despite your lack of contact with luminaries at a Catholic university and despite your ignorance of the motivation of devout Catholics to encounter Christ in the Eucharist and serve the Lord through their acts and programs of compassion. And you do this with no sensitivity to your derailment of this thread from its focus on the role and status of women for Jesus and Paul.
The Status and Role of Women in Jesus' and Paul's Ministry
- Thread starter Mystic
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
They do add in works, which include both works of compassion and participation in the sacraments. One doesn't need to have exactly your past experience to know that. I've studied this also at the postsecondary level, and have had Roman Catholic family members and friends.
Oh, and I was not first to 'derail' the thread.
Oh, and you owe @Northwind, for one, an apology
So why even make such a trivial statement if you didn't intend it to be critical? Catholics recognize (in a way that you apparently do not) the importance of Jesus' brother James' question and answer:
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?...
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deed (James 2:14. 18)."
Didn't make a trivial statement, and I do absolutely recognize that Scripture's importance. I don't hold, though, that it means that works are required for salvation
(8) Jesus devotes a lot of time to ministering to poor widows and has a unique way of assessing the worth of their lives:
41 "Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on (Mark 12:41-44).”
Jesus' celebration of this widow illustrates that God does not judge us on the basis of how big a difference we make, but on the basis of what we do with the limited abilities, resources, and opportunities that we have. As Jesus puts it,
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked (Luke `12:48).".
41 "Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on (Mark 12:41-44).”
Jesus' celebration of this widow illustrates that God does not judge us on the basis of how big a difference we make, but on the basis of what we do with the limited abilities, resources, and opportunities that we have. As Jesus puts it,
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked (Luke `12:48).".
Observe my children from your scattered angles ... one can see more than from a subjective point! Mores TU it and thus it stirs ... for sacred reason!
There are some that can never get beyond themselves for such outside observations ... from the Magi Aye?
Disturbing? The entire delinquent comprehension mist by a mess ... lost intelligence! It do go by slick ...
(6) SEXUAL EQUALITY IN JESUS' USE OF LANGUAGE:
Jesus makes a point of telling sexually parallel parables that make similar points, the first of which features a man and the second of which features a woman.
Thus, Jesus offers both men and women a similar story that they can ideintify with:
(a) Parables on the Hidden Growth of the Kingdom of God:
the Parable of the Man and the Mustard Seed (Matthew 13:31-32)
the Parable of the Woman and the Leaven (Matthew 13:33)
(b) Parables on the Top Priority God Places on Seeking the Lost:
the Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:3-7)
the Parable of the Woman and the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8:10)
(c) Parables on the Need to Persevere in Petitionary Prayer:
the Parable of the Friend at Midnight (Luke 11:5-7)
the Parable of the Widow and the Unjust Judge (Luke 18:1-8)
(7) JESUS USE OF "WOMAN" AS A SYMBOL OF GOD:
Though Jesus celebrates His intimate connection with God as His "Abba Father," He still gives woman a relatable image of God as Woman, for example, in His Parable of the Woman and the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10--something that would have shocked His judgmental contemporaries.
This provided the early church with precedent to take advantage of the feminine gender of "Spirit" ("ruach" in Hebrew and Syriac) as a pretext to honor a feminine leadership role: "The deaconess should be honored by you as the image of the Holy Spirit (Syriac Didaskalia--3rd century)."
Jesus makes a point of telling sexually parallel parables that make similar points, the first of which features a man and the second of which features a woman.
Thus, Jesus offers both men and women a similar story that they can ideintify with:
(a) Parables on the Hidden Growth of the Kingdom of God:
the Parable of the Man and the Mustard Seed (Matthew 13:31-32)
the Parable of the Woman and the Leaven (Matthew 13:33)
(b) Parables on the Top Priority God Places on Seeking the Lost:
the Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:3-7)
the Parable of the Woman and the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8:10)
(c) Parables on the Need to Persevere in Petitionary Prayer:
the Parable of the Friend at Midnight (Luke 11:5-7)
the Parable of the Widow and the Unjust Judge (Luke 18:1-8)
(7) JESUS USE OF "WOMAN" AS A SYMBOL OF GOD:
Though Jesus celebrates His intimate connection with God as His "Abba Father," He still gives woman a relatable image of God as Woman, for example, in His Parable of the Woman and the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10--something that would have shocked His judgmental contemporaries.
This provided the early church with precedent to take advantage of the feminine gender of "Spirit" ("ruach" in Hebrew and Syriac) as a pretext to honor a feminine leadership role: "The deaconess should be honored by you as the image of the Holy Spirit (Syriac Didaskalia--3rd century)."
B> THE STATUS AND ROLE OF WOMEN IN PAUL'S CHURCHES AND CIRCLES:
(1) We now shift our focus from Jesus to Pual. Paul celebrates Junia as an "outstanding female apostle:
"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was (16:7)."
For Paul, one's status as an apostle depends on having seen the risen Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:1). Junia was probably one of the 500+ who shared a mass appearance of the resurrected Jesus (15:6). And so, Paul notes that she was a Christian well prior to his conversion.
The King James translators could not tolerate Paul's recognition of an apostolic rank for a woman. So they mistranslated her nams as "Junias, which would grammatically be a man's name. But there are 2 problems with this sexist translation:
(a) "Junias" is virtually unattested as a Greek or Roman name in this era, whereas "Junia" is a common woman's name.
(b) Early church Fathers concede that the apostle in question is the woman "Junia."
The Hebrew and Aramaic equivalent of "Junia" is "Joanna." So many scholars think Junia is the same woman as Jesus' wealthy female disciple Joanna, whom Jesus healed and who helped finance His public ministry (See Luke 8:1-3).
(1) We now shift our focus from Jesus to Pual. Paul celebrates Junia as an "outstanding female apostle:
"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was (16:7)."
For Paul, one's status as an apostle depends on having seen the risen Jesus (1 Corinthians 9:1). Junia was probably one of the 500+ who shared a mass appearance of the resurrected Jesus (15:6). And so, Paul notes that she was a Christian well prior to his conversion.
The King James translators could not tolerate Paul's recognition of an apostolic rank for a woman. So they mistranslated her nams as "Junias, which would grammatically be a man's name. But there are 2 problems with this sexist translation:
(a) "Junias" is virtually unattested as a Greek or Roman name in this era, whereas "Junia" is a common woman's name.
(b) Early church Fathers concede that the apostle in question is the woman "Junia."
The Hebrew and Aramaic equivalent of "Junia" is "Joanna." So many scholars think Junia is the same woman as Jesus' wealthy female disciple Joanna, whom Jesus healed and who helped finance His public ministry (See Luke 8:1-3).
He doesn't always use the word "apostle" to mean someone who has seen the risen Christ. He often uses it just to mean someone who is a messenger, a representative, someone who played an important role in spreading the Good News, and establishing the early Church. Such seems to be the case with Junia. The Bible does not state that Junia had seen the risen Christ. It does not state that she was one of the 500+ whom you speak of
It really stands for a post hole ... the spot where things falling from high up ... make pithy marks in the dirt! Look at the face of the Moon eh! Lune-ate!
This process goes on even if very emotional folk are too dissonant to observe what is exposed ... their R's? Not WOKE TU id! The fouling of rest the remainder? This makes those up there feel better ... face it life is full of crap ... a learning experience ...
This process goes on even if very emotional folk are too dissonant to observe what is exposed ... their R's? Not WOKE TU id! The fouling of rest the remainder? This makes those up there feel better ... face it life is full of crap ... a learning experience ...
GordW
Church-Geek-Oramus
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
THat is one of the interesting pieces one reads in Acts. At the beginning of Acts Peter lays out criteria for who should replace Judas as an apostle which ends in the selection of Matthias (Act 1:12-26). By those criteria Paul himself would not qualify as an apostle. So maybe the term is understood differently either by different people and/or in different times.
Was John the Baptist considered an apostle or disciple?
(Edited)
I r think Paul stresses that she was a Christian and therefore an apostle even before him precisely because Paul recognizzes she was a witness to the resurrection. Of course, I also realize the less commonly cited more limited use of "apostle" as missionary sent one." But evven on that understanding, Junia takes an "outstanding" leadership role in the first century church.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
He would be something else entirely, wouldn't he, having come before Jesus and given the whole "baptizing Jesus" event?
But strange that he wasn't a follower of Jesus eventually......so Jesus baptism was done outside of what Paul teaches?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Well, if you believe the traditional narrative, he didn't live long after baptizing Jesus for starters (the whole Salome thing). Strictly speaking, though, everything that John the Baptist and Jesus did was outside of what Paul teaches because they predated Paul. Jesus was the basis for Paul's teachings, not the other way around.
GordW
Church-Geek-Oramus
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
It appears from the Gospel that he dies before or shortly into Jesus' ministry. There is an incident in Matthew 11:2-6 where John sends messengers (John is imprisoned already) to ask Jesus if he was indeed the one who was to come, which suggests that John was not wholly convinced because Jesus in action was not behaving quite like John had predicted he would in Matthew 3:11-12.