The Status and Role of Women in Jesus' and Paul's Ministry

[Luce NDs]

Does Accademia often reek of pious fixations and inability to learn ... even if they claim to ultimately know all ... when they can't due to the spot they are entrained in? Self enslaved by Hua bri ... it is best to know thy self as part of something of greater composure than a hostile character ...

When in a state of hostilities they cannot function with the medium ... a thinking item of concern to those that would rather not ... they'd rather not know anything and so it goes ... lost another ONE! Dipped into the state of ewe'na WOKE! Another dipper ...

 

[Mystic]

(5) JESUS TREATS A GENTILE WOMAN AS A MODEL OF PERSEVERING FAITH, DESPITE OBSTACLES (Matthew 15 :23-28)):

When confronted by this Greek (Syro-Phoenician) woman's frantic request that Jesus heal her daughter, Jesus initially ignores her, "But He did not answer her at all." Jesus is deliberately acting out the standard Jewish male attitude that a man should speak as little as possible to a woman in public.
This is just fine with the disciples, who urge Him to send her away to get rid of the annoyance. Then Jesus further discourages her by noting, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." When the woman persists with her nagging request, Jesus plays to the stereotype that Jews must maintain a strict separation from Gentiles by responding, "It's not fair to take the children's bread and give it to the dggs." "Dogs" is a slang derogatory Jewish expression for "Gentiles." So much for a woke Jesus! But the woman's faith in Jesus' healing power remains strong and she perseveres by responding in a self-effacing, witty manner, "Yes, but even dogs get the crumbs fhat fall from their master's table."

We now realize that Jesus has just been testing this woman's faith to see if she will see through His role-playing. After all, He is not in Jewish territory; He is in the Syrian region of Tyre and Sidon to minister to the Gentiles there. Thus unmasked, Jesus is gladly bested in His playful rhetorical skirmish with the woman and replies, "Great is your faith! Let it be done to you just as you wish." This praise elevates a Gentile woman to the lofty status as a model of persevering faith. Here Jesus is also making a point He repeatedly makes elsewhere, that when God seems indifferent to your petitions, persevere in prayer until you receive an answer (see e. g. Luke 11:8; 18:4-5).

 

[Waterfall]

(5) JESUS TREATS A GENTILE WOMAN AS A MODEL OF PERSEVERING FAITH, DESPITE OBSTACLES (Matthew 15 :23-28)):

When confronted by this Greek (Syro-Phoenician) woman's frantic request that Jesus heal her daughter, Jesus initially ignores her, "But He did not answer her at all." Jesus is deliberately acting out the standard Jewish male attitude that a man should speak as little as possible to a woman in public.
This is just fine with the disciples, who urge Him to send her away to get rid of the annoyance. Then Jesus further discourages her by noting, "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." When the woman persists with her nagging request, Jesus plays to the stereotype that Jews must maintain a strict separation from Gentiles by responding, "It's not fair to take the children's bread and give it to the dggs." "Dogs" is a slang derogatory Jewish expression for "Gentiles." So much for a woke Jesus! But the woman's faith in Jesus' healing power remains strong and she perseveres by responding in a self-effacing, witty manner, "Yes, but even dogs get the crumbs fhat fall from their master's table."

We now realize that Jesus has just been testing this woman's faith to see if she will see through His role-playing. After all, He is not in Jewish territory; He is in the Syrian region of Tyre and Sidon to minister to the Gentiles there. Thus unmasked, Jesus is gladly bested in His playful rhetorical skirmish with the woman and replies, "Great is your faith! Let it be done to you just as you wish." This praise elevates a Gentile woman to the lofty status as a model of persevering faith. Here Jesus is also making a point He repeatedly makes elsewhere, that when God seems indifferent to your petitions, persevere in prayer until you receive an answer (see e. g. Luke 11:8; 18:4-5).

You may see this as a playful rhetorical skirmish, but when a woman has a dying daughter, it looks more like she's being made to plead and beg for her daughter to be healed.

 

[Mystic]

You may see this as a playful rhetorical skirmish, but when a woman has a dying daughter, it looks more like she's being made to plead and beg for her daughter to be healed.

(1) Uh, you need to actually reread the text. The woman's daughter is not dying.
(2) Jesus makes it clear that He is not simply responding to her desperate pleading. Rather, he discerns her uniquely strong faith for healing.
Still, the confrontational way Jesus addresses her is striking, far from woke! The incident attests how important persevering faith in the face of obstacles can be for the success of some healings. This reminds me of the price supplicants pay at Lourdes as they await their chance to drink or bathe in the healing Marian spring. The posted testimonies of miracles like healings from advanced multiple sclerosis and congestive heart failure mention their long persevering prayer vigils, while they wait for hours in very long lines for their chance to get to the spring.

The story makes me wonder whether I have at times given up my own prayer vigils too soon, when the heavens seem like brass in the face of my passionate longing. J. Hudson Taylor was a great man of faith. He founded the Chinese inland mission before the Communist takeover. He once offered a provocative key to the effectiveness of his prayer life. He said, "I realized that I could receive the greatest answers to prayer when my heart felt like wood."

 

[Northwind]

I'm still wondering why many current churches subjugate women if they follow Jesus who according to Berserk was quite ahead of his time and treated women equally.

 

[Mystic]

I'm still wondering why many current churches subjugate women if they follow Jesus who according to Berserk was quite ahead of his time and treated women equally.

Those churches would draw your attention to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 as biblical grounds for denying top leadership roles for women.
There are 2 reasons why I'm postponing the arguments against the relevance of these 2 texts:
(1) I want to first demonstrate how massively the suppression of female leadership in these 2 texts is contradicted by the teaching and practice of both Jesus and Paul.
(2) That should prepare readers for a demonstration that neither text derives from Paul; i. e.
(a) that 1 Timothy was written by someone else long after Paul's death;
(b) that there are many reasons why modern scholars consider 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 to be one of the 2 later non-Pauline interpolations into the Corinthian correspondence (the other being 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1).

 

[Jaebius]

I'm still wondering why many current churches subjugate women if they follow Jesus who according to Berserk was quite ahead of his time and treated women equally.

Because those current churches aren't listening well to Jesus. It isn't "many" though. The majority of Christian churches are now egalitarian

 

[Luce NDs]

Because those current churches aren't listening well to Jesus. It isn't "many" though. The majority of Christian churches are now egalitarian

It is all a subtlety ... ultimately everyone is spun and cranked ... hypothetically ... and yet they are unaware ... not WOKE ... Dais comes and the ultimate comes around ... slick joust? It resembles Satyr on a hot summer's night ... Nacht? After the wrackt ... an old English tern to mark down ... as off the rails ... strayed?

The railroad to heaven is full of wrecks ... learn from the remains ... a process! Yet few listen well, deep or profound as that's subtle ... facetiae?

A shroud 've virtue ... to cover where Thor was ...

 

[GordW]

Because those current churches aren't listening well to Jesus. It isn't "many" though. The majority of Christian churches are now egalitarian

TO some degree...

 

[Mendalla]

Except the single biggest Christian denomination still won't ordain women (yes, I know, some Protestants don't consider the RCs to be Christian but they objectively are). And there's a number of Protestant denominations that won't as well, though most of the mainstream now do. There cannot be full equality if one is denied access to the most senior professional role in the church.

 

[Luce NDs]

Does Christian have anything to do with being enlightened and drifting off? There is a certain Eire to it ...

 

[Mystic]

(6) SEXUAL EQUALITY IN JESUS' USE OF LANGUAGE:

Jesus makes a point of telling sexually parallel parables that make similar points, the first of which features a man and the second of which features a woman.
Thus, Jesus offers both men and women a similar story that they can ideintify with:

(a) Parables on the Hidden Growth of the Kingdom of God:
the Parable of the Mustard Seed (Matthew 13:31-32)
the Parable of the Leaven (Matthew 13:33)

(b) Parables on the Top Priority God Places on Seeking the Lost:
the Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15:3-7)
the Parable of the Woman and the Lost Coin (Luke 15:8:10)

(c) Parables on the Need to Persevere in Petitionary Prayer:
the Parable of the Friend at Midnight (Luke 11:5-7)
the Parable of the Widow and the Unjust Judge (Luke 18:1-8)

 

[Jaebius]

Except the single biggest Christian denomination still won't ordain women (yes, I know, some Protestants don't consider the RCs to be Christian but they objectively are).

"objectively"? How are you using that word here?

And there's a number of Protestant denominations that won't as well, though most of the mainstream now do. There cannot be full equality if one is denied access to the most senior professional role in the church.

The majority of Protestant churches are now egalitarian

 

[Mendalla]

"objectively"? How are you using that word here?

They believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, they use the Christian scriptures. Those two for starters (there's more but to keep it brief) are objective facts, not opinions. And those alone would, to my eye, make them Christian. Not to mention that historically speaking, they were all of Christianity in Western Europe for about a thousand years before Luther (also an objective fact), and the Reformation could not have happened without them being that connection from the early church down to the 16th century. Maybe I am overstating a bit, but in my experience, the claim that the RCs are not Christians is a mostly anti-Papist propaganda and entirely the opinion of a certain wing of Protestantism, not something really supportable when history and the actual teachings and practices of the RC church are looked at seriously.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Women never needed men to lead them to inclusion and equality. We just needed them to get out of our way, and there's no objective evidence that the Christian patriarchy has ever led the (getting out of the) way since the time of the men whose purported words dominate this thread, and our lives.

 

[Jaebius]

They believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, they use the Christian scriptures. Those two for starters (there's more but to keep it brief) are objective facts, not opinions. And those alone would, to my eye, make them Christian. Not to mention that historically speaking, they were all of Christianity in Western Europe for about a thousand years before Luther (also an objective fact), and the Reformation could not have happened without them being that connection from the early church down to the 16th century. Maybe I am overstating a bit, but in my experience, the claim that the RCs are not Christians is a mostly anti-Papist propaganda and entirely the opinion of a certain wing of Protestantism, not something really supportable when history and the actual teachings and practices of the RC church are looked at seriously.

Thank you for your reply, Mendalla. However, I think that it's to your eye, in your experience, makes it subjective rather than objective. Same would be true no matter who was doing the seeing and the experiencing. Imho, what stops most Roman Catholics from being Christians is that they don't hold to faith in Christ alone

 

[Luce NDs]

Women have a subtle hand in the affairs of men that many men do not understand ...

I immediately think of the neighbor that believes the other (alternate) neighbor is more stupid that the first person mentioned ... and then the quality of empiric falls upon the first person as nihilistic all ... nailed by their actions! Imagine this all spiked by spines on the cross ... tacky?

Humans that have leading feeling sometimes miss what follows ... and then take the bates --- Kathy what's her name ... Kalām (a semi*tite word for being quiet and calm) ... so it goes 'd and few never noticed!

Never ignore nothing ... regardless of the grey mire ... folk have enigma over black & white and other distinctions ... regardless over those that do get it together according to the 6th command! God's before and behind? Well that's something ...

 

[Mystic]

"objectively"? How are you using that word h

I say what I will now say as a non-Catholic who has even successfully sued Catholics.
Nothing is worse than Roman Catholicism at its worst. But no Christian spirituality is better than Roman Catholic spirituality at its best.

 

[Luce NDs]

I say what I will now say as a non-Catholic who has even successfully sued Catholics.
Nothing is worse than Roman Catholicism at its worst. But no Christian spirituality is better than Roman Catholic spirituality at its best.

Nothing is worse that fixed belief as things do alter ... because of God's movement! Some can't see it due to occult complications in their vision ...

Rod 'd and shafted in raw state ... roue-ah!

 

[Jaebius]

I say what I will now say as a non-Catholic who has even successfully sued Catholics.
Nothing is worse than Roman Catholicism at its worst. But no Christian spirituality is better than Roman Catholic spirituality at its best.

Another interesting word choice. How are you using the word "better" here?