There are no such things, as saints!

[Jaebius]

You would be ricchly blessed by the old movie, "The Song of Bernadette" which you can watch for free here:
Home ~ VideosArena.com

Bernadette Soubirous was ridiculed even by her family, persecuted, and threatnened by her community and France in general until her supernatural discovery of the healing spring at Lourdes and the healing miracles that quickly ensued for those who washed in the spring. Jennifer jones won the Academy Award for Best Actress for her role as Berneatee. Millions mow make the pilgrimage to Lourdes annyally, more than the Muslims who travel annually to Mecca!

It sounds like an inspiring film that really highlights faith.

I believe that such stories can really enrich our spiritual lives and encourage us to trust in God's plans, even when they seem beyond our understanding

 

[Mystic]

'The Song of Bernadette" move can be watched in color for free here:

the song of bernadette movie youtube - Search Videos

www.bing.com

 

[Luce NDs]

All is the stuff of dreams, visions and fantasies to take out perspectives away from brutal authority's intend to work us to death for their perpetration and salvation as deficient in conscience (part of the brane and thus wicked to the mania). In the terminal condition only the myth, story and ballad go on as it par AB Elles ...

The stoics will never observe such activity ... fantasy to them is real and absolute until it falls off the edge ... in the sphere this goes round and round for repetition until one get Levity and goes ... all unseen by the heavier-Yahn' dead bunch! The UNA WOKE ... walking dead ... Jesus spoke of the concern ... spooks that bothered powers in the after math of the struggle ... ghosts of psyche? That's URe Aye ...

 

[jimkenney12]

I understand it's tradition. But that is a moot subject.
The church has never had the authority or explicit permission from jesus or god, yet they took it upon themselves to decide who sits where in heaven. That is my question/query. If you believe god is the ultimate authority. Then how could the church supersede it.

You are ignoring replies when you insist on conflating the RC with the church.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

You are ignoring replies when you insist on conflating the RC with the church.

I'm sorry, but I'm not conflating anything. Many churches honour saints, not just the Catholic Church. These include the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches (such as Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syriac, and Malankara), the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Methodist Church, and some Reformed Churches.

Moreover, most churches celebrate All Saints' Day. Why is that?

 

[Mendalla]

I'm sorry, but I'm not conflating anything. Many churches honour saints, not just the Catholic Church. These include the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches (such as Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syriac, and Malankara), the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Methodist Church, and some Reformed Churches.

Moreover, most churches celebrate All Saints' Day. Why is that?

But only the Roman Catholics have a convoluted, bureaucratic process for determining who is a saint.

As commented earlier, not sure about on your side of The Pond, but here Methodists (who are now mostly in the UCCan in Canada) and Reformed Churches don't canonize people, they stick to established saints like the Evangelists, Apostles, and Church Fathers. I went to Saint James-Rosemount United but we did not celebrates James (the Apostle James, IIRC) in any meaningful way.

And the Eastern and Oriental Churches, as I understand it from some reading I did at the beginning of the thread, it's determined by local bishops and congregants, not a centralized hierarchy.

And when Protestants celebrates All Saints Day (to be honest, I don't know many that do), they are celebrating it in a more generic sense, not the specific, church canonized sense.

So a lot rides on what you mean by "saints".

For instance, to most Protestants (the Anglicans/CoE might be an exception, I forget), there is no canonization process or intercession. "Saints" are simply people who were foundational to the church or, in a more generic sense, people who live lives of faith and work for the cause of God/Christ. No prays to/thru saints. No one canonizes recently deceased people as we saw with that teenager in Italy. Basically, if a church or person sees someone as "saintly" then they are a saint to that person/group.

So Jim is quite correct. You are conflating the RC understanding of sainthood as a specific title that is based on miracles and "proof" requiring adjudication with the more generic understanding of "saint" that many in the Protestant world follow.

 

[Mystic]

I have provided some key biblical texts that imply that deceased saints monitor event on earth., in which case the prospect of direct communication of our desires with them for intercession looms as an intriguing possibility. But the question then arises, how can deceased saints who are not omnisicent keep tabs on requests directed their way? There are various theories to explain this. But for me the bottom line is the issue of evidence of medically verified healing healing miracles achieved through invoking saints' intercession. Likewise, I see no reason why washing in a Marian spring like Lourdes should facilitate healing miracles. But again, the evidence is overwhelming and abundance that such springs are precisely such an instrument of miracles.'

So why don't I regularly pray to saints? First, because dong so is so utterly alien to my lifelong Chrisitan practice; and second, because I frankly don't know how to get started and my initial exploratory efforts have born no fruit. Maybe I need to consult our local priest for a workable methodology. In the last analysis I have a pragmatic approach to spiritual truth: if it makes an obvious difference for me, my spirituality would move closer to Catholic spirituality.
If I give it my best effort and it doesn't work, then at some point I must shove it aside as irrelevant. I'll keep you all posted if I make progress on this matter.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Ok. The Protestants may not canonize saints in the way the RC does but the Eastern, Oriental, and the Assyrian do. So I don't think I am conflating anything. However the argument still stands, regardless of who does what, who gave them the permission.
That was the point of the thread.
Trying to agree on who canonizes and who doesn't isn't really relevant is it.

 

[unsafe]

Nowhere in the Bible does either God or Jesus refer to a saint, saints, or sainthood. So where did the idea come from?

In the Old Testament, it's simply implied, and in the New Testament, it's mentioned mostly in Paul’s letters. But Paul is neither God nor Jesus, it sounds like he was bestowing the title on people without authorization from either.

Neither God nor Jesus directly gave instructions on sainthood as a formal title. The idea that some believers could be officially declared 'saints' came from the Church, which had no right to make this call.

Why do they think they have that right? Who gave it to them? It wasn't Jesus or God.

Well Saint means Holy ----so God did use the word Holy a lot in Scripture -----So God did give Holy as a formal title ---and Holy also means Saint ----so Saint is a formal Title as it means the same as Holy and it is authorized by God as a formal title ----and therefore is used with permission from God and Jesus who is God -----

Hebrew and greek word for Holy
Strong's Lexicon
qadosh:
Strong’s Definitions
קָדוֹשׁ qâdôwsh, kaw-doshe'; or קָדֹשׁ qâdôsh; from H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, —holy (One) saint.
Meaning: sacred, God, an angel, a saint,

you can substitute Holy for Saint in all scripture where holy is used

Leviticus 19:2
2 “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy


Leviticus 20:7
7 Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:26
26 You shall be holy to me,for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.

1 Peter 1:16
16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

I say --you can say in scripture above -------So you shall be a saint (-Holy)-for i am a Saint ( Holy )--and you would be correct in saying that -----God approved ------

 

[BetteTheRed]

So you'd be agreeing with the Protestant church that saints are "god-faithful" people, rather than the totally rule/criteria different process of the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Unsafe you made the very same mistake Jae made.
So I'll repeat for you what I said to him, in post #82

There lies your problem Unsafe
I assume you consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective? If so, then invoking your deity as a source of inspiration, without demonstrable evidence of its existence, is irrational and lacks a logical foundation. Without evidence, attributing anything to your deity risks misleading the narrative.

Furthermore, the bible you reference contains no direct statements from god or jesus in either the Old or New Testament that sanction sainthood. Any mentions of sainthood come solely from human characters, not the divine. Therefore, claims about divine endorsement of sainthood lack support and amounts to human posturing, regardless of whether the book was 'inspired' by a higher power. Or whether you think holy means saint. The text was written by humans, with all the flaws and desires inherent in humanity. Ok.

 

[Luce NDs]

Humans are not rational ... they are devoted to irrationalism ... don't you love it how they eat your heart out and leave you holy (hole eh)?

Well there had to be this thing so we could get through a difficult life designated by some theologians to be wholly ... a bit feint and fuzzy?

Thus clouded dense and thick spots with flaws ... immortal cracks ... vast eh? A vastee, cast off said the pirate as he stole away ... thieves of the night? Consider the given take should be balanced ... not the way of avarice ... these are our leaders discouraged by MAG NU's Carter ... thus it all comes down to self-destruction ... to know thyself is to know Beta ... comes after the alpha thing ... does it matter?

I should be out of here as declared by the symbol Apo as in apostasies ... a stick i the pool? It may prove to be apocalyptic ... what ever calypsos means as a deviation from lypse ...

LYPSE:

"lifting of the veil" or "finding out something secret". from the Wiki Pedi ... what some deadhead's call evil intelligence ...

Don't look Alice it could be Kohl and dark in 'ere ... the vast hump of night to get over as a dark and stormy item ... kin dah abstract? Feint relation!

Sometimes de light just hangs there in the tree like ayahuasca ... a Child of David? It can numb the conscience ... like alternate forms of the dark lady and her wee green folk in phoresies ... forest bugs ... emerald things ... pas Zion bug ... collective of IO*nization? Immaterial particles! Small þities that didn't count ... but can be your end ... pits, holes in the dirt provided ... exorbitant spread of black hole material that isn't .. thus it ju' saint ... dark web?

Muf phit? Yas be still ...

 

[unsafe]

Furthermore, the bible you reference contains no direct statements from god or jesus in either the Old or New Testament that sanction sainthood.

So here is the THING -----
Your Claim here is unsupported Spiritually But right for your Worldly way of thinking because your a Natural Man and Satan has blinded your mind so you can't understand the Obvious Spiritual meaning which has been Proven to you ---by the languages that the Scripture was written in which gives you the Spiritual meaning in -----Hebrew and Greek -----HolY and Saint are the same in meaning ------

You can only understand the meaning a Secular Saint as you have no ability to understand the meaning of a Spiritual Saint -----that is scriptural -----

1 Corinthians 2
AMP
But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

Worth repeating -----
[and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

So your claim here below is unsupported ---Spiritually
cause you can't grasp the Spiritual meaning and therefore it goes Over Your Head of Spiritual Understanding

Your quote Here ---------
the bible you reference contains no direct statements from god or jesus in either the Old or New Testament that sanction sainthood.

This is unbelievers problem --veiled eyes ----Remove the secular veil and only then can you see the Spiritual Truth -----




So your Secular worldly Thinking is Right for You and probably all unbelievers ------but is is not Right in Spiritual Thinking ---Holy and Saint in the Spiritual are interchangeable as they mean the same thing -----

And that is where the 2 paths Part --So that is that ------

 

[Luce NDs]

Then there are those that believe without reason as they do not accept a ideal of knowledge, wisdom and travelling intelligence ... all is thus silenced, calmed, muted and suffering apo statis ... no movement so lacking ... it must be dead to rights (those absconding with the advantage that was meant to be shared in balance). Daily I see Christian avarice ... attempts to control that which they have absolute vacancy of knowledge ...

Can such things be balanced ? Improbable in reality but maybe in a complex abstract ... these being transparent ... an essence traded that simulates limbic fluid in the real world ... some glands prerequisite ... they exude endogenous matter ... basic steroid like DMA and its variants ... 4 of them doing the horse work ... heavies?

Spirits are like in culpable powers that wash the memory of things you unconsciously don't wish to face ... like onus ... and Ca lypse rising out of the dark to suck you down in the middle of the night for the Dark Horse Scene ... Black Booty and a decent rest wrestling with the dia Bo Lexis?

These texts often carry meanings and understanding all appearance in shards ... busted folk? many excessively cheeky about their attributes ... and thus descending intelligence ... because of hubris ... I'll go for the catacombs ... a grand icon of what rube sees without cultivation ... how to manufacture a dum*base? Make it simple ... strip it of all knowledge ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Is learning a ruag spirit given the difficulty the great mystery added to life pool given that 1 demi didn't wish to learn anything at all due to excessively excitable essence of the alter type? Thus woven into the thing we rest upon as an vast unknown ... carpet baggers?

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Unsafe (reference to post #113)
A laugh emoji was all that post deserved, sorry.
With that reply, you’ve admitted to not being rational or guided by a logical perspective.
There’s nothing more to add.

 

[Mystic]

Ok. The Protestants may not canonize saints in the way the RC does but the Eastern, Oriental, and the Assyrian do. So I don't think I am conflating anything. However the argument still stands, regardless of who does what, who gave them the permission.

God gave them permission in the most impressive w ay possible--through the many miedically and scentifically verified miracles achieved through prayin to the saints.

 

[unsafe]

There’s nothing more to add.

------------------------------Yup that is right ------there is ---nothing more to add -----good ending ----Pavlos Maros

 

[chansen]

--View attachment 10160----------------------------Yup that is right ------there is ---nothing more to add -----good ending ----Pavlos Maros

This, from the author of "-----PERIOD-----"????

 

[Luce NDs]

Yet, God said put nothing before me ... and a lot of determinates say they believe but they really don't because they lean towards love is nothing as they like the powerful corruption angle ... an essential vector ... and the alternate is hating anything that knows complexity! From there the discussion degrades ...