There are no such things, as saints!

[Mystic]

Noatice how Pavros is left with a nervous giggle to mask embarrassment over blissful ignorance of the scientfic medical commssion, independent of the Catholic Church, that investigates and confirms healing miracles at the Marian site of Lourdes and other vierifications of healing miracles through prayer to saints.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

There is another nervous giggle.
"Noatice" what "vierifications" from the "commssion" You're frigging hilarious. And who the frig is "Pavros".

 

[Luce NDs]

Noatice how Pavros is left with a nervous giggle to mask embarrassment over blissful ignorance of the scientfic medical commssion, independent of the Catholic Church, that investigates and confirms healing miracles at the Marian site of Lourdes and other vierifications of healing miracles through prayer to saints.

And how a certain sense of fear and para n ooid situation causes anger in the entanglement ... with the great unknown ...

Mystic seems not to have known something here ... love is a tussle for those dunked in profound hate ... and then they use the scapegoat ...

The great unknown is frightening ... know ...

I'm told ooid is a calcified thing like sclerosis ... tough eh?

 

[Mystic]

Your constant nervous giggles mask your embarrassment in refusing to season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor by actually watching this video on the scientific medical team, independent of the Catholic Church that takes many years of scientific investigation to validate Lourdes miracle clajms. why do you keep ducking this chalenge? Hmmm

And these investigations don't even include the countless other healing miracles there in which those healed are understandably not motivated to invest the time, money, various medical consultations, and travel expenses imposed on then by this protracted investigation. Instead. they are content to celebrate their healing miracle with family, friends, and their local church.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Your constant nervous giggles mask your embarrassment in refusing to season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor by actually watching this video on the scientific medical team, independent of the Catholic Church that takes many years of scientific investigation to validate Lourdes miracle clajms. why do you keep ducking this chalenge? Hmmm

And these investigations don't even include the countless other healing miracles there in which those healed are understandably not motivated to invest the time, money, various medical consultations, and travel expenses imposed on then by this protracted investigation. Instead. they are content to celebrate their healing miracle with family, friends, and their local church.

If all this were true, Catholics, as a population, and countries that are predominantly Catholic, would have statistically better health than their non-Catholic demographic counterparts. They don't.

The denominations/religions that DO have statistically better health are those that mandate abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, refined sugar, etc. Pork and shellfish are often a bit dicey in equatorial countries, particularly where refrigeration is limited.

And "medical miracles" happen all around the world, to all sorts of people, the religious and the non-religious alike. Medical professionals are not God, all-knowing.

Berserk, are you capable of a civil conversation? Generally, I find I get along better with others when I don't insult them.

 

[Mystic]

If all this were true, Catholics, as a population, and countries that are predominantly Catholic, would have statistically better health than their non-Catholic demographic counterparts. They don't.

Rubbish! First, many among the annual tourists to Lourdes are not Catholic.
Second, you miss the key point that only those Lourdes pilgrims are relevant to this question.

The denominations/religions that DO have statistically better health are those that mandate abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, refined sugar, etc. Pork and shellfish are often a bit dicey in equatorial countries, particularly where refrigeration is limited.

Duh, who ever claimed that faith healing is the only actor in health?

And "medical miracles" happen all around the world, to all sorts of people, the religious and the non-religious alike. Medical professionals are not God, all-knowing.

{

You meed to study rigorous medical studies of the calibre of the Lourdes non=Catholic investigative medical board.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I meed to do nothing at your daft direction, but I do like mead. Bit sweet, potential for terrible hangover.

 

[Mystic]

I meed to do nothing at your daft direction, but I do like mead. Bit sweet, potential for terrible hangover.

So if you can't offer ecidence of the Lourdes calibre, best to be silent and do more research, dear.

 

[Jaebius]

Unsafe you made the very same mistake Jae made.
So I'll repeat for you what I said to him, in post #82

Didn't make any mistake in this thread, Pavlos. That you called something I said a mistake doesn't make it one

 

[Jaebius]

But only the Roman Catholics have a convoluted, bureaucratic process for determining who is a saint.

As commented earlier, not sure about on your side of The Pond, but here Methodists (who are now mostly in the UCCan in Canada) and Reformed Churches don't canonize people, they stick to established saints like the Evangelists, Apostles, and Church Fathers. I went to Saint James-Rosemount United but we did not celebrates James (the Apostle James, IIRC) in any meaningful way.

And the Eastern and Oriental Churches, as I understand it from some reading I did at the beginning of the thread, it's determined by local bishops and congregants, not a centralized hierarchy.

And when Protestants celebrates All Saints Day (to be honest, I don't know many that do), they are celebrating it in a more generic sense, not the specific, church canonized sense.

So a lot rides on what you mean by "saints".

For instance, to most Protestants (the Anglicans/CoE might be an exception, I forget), there is no canonization process or intercession. "Saints" are simply people who were foundational to the church or, in a more generic sense, people who live lives of faith and work for the cause of God/Christ. No prays to/thru saints. No one canonizes recently deceased people as we saw with that teenager in Italy. Basically, if a church or person sees someone as "saintly" then they are a saint to that person/group.

So Jim is quite correct. You are conflating the RC understanding of sainthood as a specific title that is based on miracles and "proof" requiring adjudication with the more generic understanding of "saint" that many in the Protestant world follow.

Well said, Mendalla. We in the reformed church see all Christians as being saints. The same was true in the conservative Baptist denomination I was a member and leader in while I lived in Toronto

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Didn't make any mistake in this thread, Pavlos. That you called something I said a mistake doesn't make it one

Please do enlighten me. As to why you post #55 isn't a mistake.
I assume you consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective? Then invoking your deity as a source of inspiration, without demonstrable evidence of its existence, is irrational and lacks a logical foundation. Which is clearly a mistake on your part. However if on the converse you don't consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective? Then as you say it isn't a mistake. Thank you.

 

[Jaebius]

Please do enlighten me. As to why you post #55 isn't a mistake.

Am comfortable holding to what I said in post #55, Pavlos.

I assume you consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective?

Yes, and no. I consider myself rational, but I don't consider myself guided by a values perspective. Values, ideals, and emotional connections are most important to me.

Then invoking your deity as a source of inspiration, without demonstrable evidence of its existence, is irrational and lacks a logical foundation. Which is clearly a mistake on your part. However if on the converse you don't consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective? Then as you say it isn't a mistake. Thank you.

Have a good evening

 

[Pavlos Maros]

but I don't consider myself guided by a values perspective. Values, ideals, and emotional connections are most important to me.

You do realize that statement is contradictory.
And you didn't really need to reply, but replying you showed you are not rational either. And here is why.
Your rationality is only within the context of your lived reality. Your ideals, emotions, etc, and as such is subject to error. This limits your cognition and perception, and it raises important questions about the reliability of what is rational in your worldview. But thank you anyway.

 

[Jaebius]

You do realize that statement is contradictory.

Disagree.

And you didn't really need to reply, but replying you showed you are not rational either.

So you say.

And here is why.
Your rationality is only within the context of your lived reality. Your ideals, emotions, etc, and as such is subject to error.

So's your logic

 

[Luce NDs]

You do realize that statement is contradictory.
And you didn't really need to reply, but replying you showed you are not rational either. And here is why.
Your rationality is only within the context of your lived reality. Your ideals, emotions, etc, and as such is subject to error. This limits your cognition and perception, and it raises important questions about the reliability of what is rational in your worldview. But thank you anyway.

It is cyclic rational ... it goes round and round about some word of legit becoming laws because laws are dizzying.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

So's your logic

Care to explain how logic limits cognition and perception? Subjective beliefs can be good. However, they must be tempered by logic to prevent irrationality or harm. If this is not done, you are open to any kind of lunacy, especially when it comes to ensuring consistency, clarity, and alignment with reality.

 

[Jaebius]

Care to explain how logic limits cognition and perception? Subjective beliefs can be good. However, they must be tempered by logic to prevent irrationality or harm. If this is not done, you are open to any kind of lunacy, especially when it comes to ensuring consistency, clarity, and alignment with reality.

All I said, Pavlos, is that your logic is subject to error. You may imagine yourself to be one who's perfect in being logical. I rest assured that you're not

 

[Luce NDs]

Remember only God's folk are perfect ... it is part of their belief system!

The nature of such determinacy does create some dissonance, chaos and disorder in sectors ... thus creating excitement that often drive out any logos or logic ... as happens in the madness of crowds ... even Trump was determined that everyone was supporting him and many followed without process or logic!

Nonetheless exciting ...

Jae, do you remember the park on the river side of Queen street between Carleton and Regent? I spoke of this today with a long term Fredericton resident who could not remember it and was on the verge of denying it's existence ... a great illustration of numb determinacy for the sake of something fore got ... lost bit , eh?

There is now a stage and outdoor skating rink there ... odd how things go up in the mind as vapid (kind of not real or a fog in the memes).

Defined as: offering nothing that is stimulating or challenging. (like a negative excitement as in folly about ah ole). Iron workers call these holidays ... thus sate 'nd ... it is said many mortals are not prone to satisfaction by avarice ... a power syndrome! Thus many like Moses go in relief ... towards the flaw, crack, crevasse, or cleavage in the hills ... how you apply logos can cause collapse and empiric folly ... the downing of gross power?

Maybe self destructive? Some people know they are imperfect and then others are determined not ... the setae of the unconscious psyche! Is it clear ... like nothing in front? Simplicity prevails when complex logos is put down ... and Stu PID ite spreads ... "-ite" is an alloying facet! It may appear as a dite ... really small bit ...

 

[Pavlos Maros]

All I said, Pavlos, is that your logic is subject to error. You may imagine yourself to be one who's perfect in being logical. I rest assured that you're not

Logic can be fallible, even when applied perfectly. The key is recognizing that human reasoning and interpretation often influence outcomes, and errors can still occur.
Hence why I posted this in post #82 "Well there is your problem, Jae.
Do you consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective? If so, then invoking your deity as a source of inspiration, without demonstrable evidence of its existence, is irrational and lacks a logical foundation. Without evidence, attributing anything to your deity risks misleading the narrative." in the first place.
And around we go again.

 

[Luce NDs]

Logic can be fallible, even when applied perfectly. The key is recognizing that human reasoning and interpretation often influence outcomes, and errors can still occur.
Hence why I posted this in post #82 "Well there is your problem, Jae.
Do you consider yourself rational and guided by a logical perspective? If so, then invoking your deity as a source of inspiration, without demonstrable evidence of its existence, is irrational and lacks a logical foundation. Without evidence, attributing anything to your deity risks misleading the narrative." in the first place.
And around we go again.

He did tell me he prefers excitement and whatever over comes intelligence ... in many churches I've heard the tree of knowledge and life is evil ... to say nothing of wisdom that is afore us or beyond ... according to a primal directive ... thus breaks in the clouds!

Life is rough ... I'm waiting for departure from the floating normal ... normal being a myth! Sort of like Binary Theory ... after the duality a 3rd comes 4th ... just the way the numbers roll ... clickety click ...

I suppose that this causes exciting dissonance among those that believe they've got everything nailed down on the lighter's Ide ... flinty sparks???? Irony is prerequisite ... heroes cannot stand jokers as they make them uneasy ...

Thank God Jae doesn't grasp much ...