GENESIS: Snoopy's Short & Snappy Review
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Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Well, if we are following Revelation, there's still pestilence to go. Epidemics and pandemics are as old as civilization after all. 
(But I don't recall Abram ever encountering one, though I was blissfully unaware of his Alexander-like military prowess as well).
(But I don't recall Abram ever encountering one, though I was blissfully unaware of his Alexander-like military prowess as well).
paradox3
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Here is a link to a useful resource:
lectionary.library.vanderbilt.edu
Genesis 13 and 14 don't appear at all in the Revised Common Lectionary.
Citation Canonical Index : Revised Common Lectionary
An index of all readings in the Revised Common Lectionary and the dates on which they appear
Genesis 13 and 14 don't appear at all in the Revised Common Lectionary.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
God definitely was with Abraham no question in my mind ------
For me the important aspect of the Story is ----with God all things are possible -----and making decisions based solely on external appearances like Lot did seeing the path to Sodom as a good move just because there was water -----this move almost cost him his life -----his bad decision came back to bite him in the Butt -----as it does with us today -----
Genesis 13:10
New International Version
Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)
unsafe
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paradox3
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Good morning. Here is Genesis 15:
Snoopy's Snappy Review: Gruesome tale today.
www.biblegateway.com
Today's story involves the covenant between God and Abram and it gets a little gruesome. Don't say Snoopy didn't warn you.
God promises Abram he will have an heir and his descendants will be as many as the stars. Abram believes God and God declares him righteous.
God instructs him to get a heifer, a goat, a ram, a pigeon and a dove. Abram cuts the animals in two and places the halves across from each other. The birds are left intact. When the birds of prey arrive for the carcasses, Abram chases them away.
God tells Abram that his descendants will be enslaved and oppressed in a foreign country for 400 years. But they will return in the fourth generation.
After dark, a flaming torch passes between the animal parts. God covenants with Abram that the land will belong to his descendants.
Snoopy's Snappy Review: Gruesome tale today.
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 15 - New English Translation
The Cutting of the Covenant - After these things the LORD’s message came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram! I am your shield and the one who will reward you in great abundance.” But Abram said, “O Sovereign LORD, what will you give me since I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer...
Today's story involves the covenant between God and Abram and it gets a little gruesome. Don't say Snoopy didn't warn you.
God promises Abram he will have an heir and his descendants will be as many as the stars. Abram believes God and God declares him righteous.
God instructs him to get a heifer, a goat, a ram, a pigeon and a dove. Abram cuts the animals in two and places the halves across from each other. The birds are left intact. When the birds of prey arrive for the carcasses, Abram chases them away.
God tells Abram that his descendants will be enslaved and oppressed in a foreign country for 400 years. But they will return in the fourth generation.
After dark, a flaming torch passes between the animal parts. God covenants with Abram that the land will belong to his descendants.
paradox3
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Seems bizarre, right? Apparently this procedure with the animal parts is a thing that will be explained in Leviticus. Between two people, it's roughly the equivalent of shaking on a deal. The two people walk through the animal halves which are set out across from each other.
Just been reflecting that I was already familiar with the descendants being as numerous as the stars. But I had never heard the story about cutting animals in two. I looked it up and it appears in the lectionary once per cycle
Just been reflecting that I was already familiar with the descendants being as numerous as the stars. But I had never heard the story about cutting animals in two. I looked it up and it appears in the lectionary once per cycle
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Verses 7-8
7 The Lord said[v] to him, “I am the Lord[w] who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans[x] to give you this land to possess.”
8 But[y] Abram[z] said, “O Sovereign Lord,[aa] by what[ab] can I know that I am to possess it?”
So we see here Abraham asking for a sign -----and God then cuts a covenant with Abraham by telling him to do this ===Notice there are 2 birds mentioned so they did not have to be cut ---
9 The Lord[ac] said to him, “Take for me a heifer, a goat, and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”
10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half.
11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.
Looking at it Spiritually ----my view
The three years here is important because the number 3 symbolizes completeness --- maturity -----these animals were mature in stature ----
Cutting them in half and arranging them opposite to each other symbolizes a 2 party covenant ----it also symbolizes a Blood Covenant was made as Blood had to be shed from the animals being cut in half ----this would be a serious covenant in my view where the 2 parties are bound by the shed blood ----maybe also symbolizing the New Covenant of Grace which was to come ??
Verse 11 ----symbolizing the foes of Israel who will come against them ----and Abraham driving them away show his faith and relationship with God -----
These verses are in the future ---12-16
This is a future vision that Abraham has when he is asleep From God describing --when the Israelites will be taken as slaves in Egypt ----and God rescues them and bring them out with all their Possessions ------even telling Abraham that he will go to his ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age -----
12 When the sun went down, Abram fell sound asleep,[ag] and great terror overwhelmed him.[ah]
13 Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain[ai] that your descendants will be strangers[aj] in a foreign country.[ak] They will be enslaved and oppressed[al] for 400 years.
14 But I will execute judgment on the nation that they will serve.[am] Afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 But as for you,[an] you will go to your ancestors[ao] in peace and be buried at a good old age.[ap]
16 In the fourth generation[aq] your descendants[ar] will return here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its limit.”[as]
If you do your research --the Amorites along with others occupied Canaan area and they were a wicked people and God was waiting for them to reach their full limit of sinful deeds before He word drive these people from the land he was promising to Abraham and ----Abraham's descendants ----
verse
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking firepot with a flaming torch[at] passed between the animal parts.[au]
18 That day the Lord made a covenant[av] with Abram: “To your descendants I give[aw] this land, from the river of Egypt[ax] to the great river, the Euphrates River—
19 the land[ay] of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”[az]
verse 17
7 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking firepot with a flaming torch[at] passed between the animal parts.[au]
The fire passing between the animal parts -----Fire represents the presents of God -----so God was sealing the covenant with Abraham -----
7 The Lord said[v] to him, “I am the Lord[w] who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans[x] to give you this land to possess.”
8 But[y] Abram[z] said, “O Sovereign Lord,[aa] by what[ab] can I know that I am to possess it?”
So we see here Abraham asking for a sign -----and God then cuts a covenant with Abraham by telling him to do this ===Notice there are 2 birds mentioned so they did not have to be cut ---
9 The Lord[ac] said to him, “Take for me a heifer, a goat, and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”
10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half.
11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.
Looking at it Spiritually ----my view
The three years here is important because the number 3 symbolizes completeness --- maturity -----these animals were mature in stature ----
Cutting them in half and arranging them opposite to each other symbolizes a 2 party covenant ----it also symbolizes a Blood Covenant was made as Blood had to be shed from the animals being cut in half ----this would be a serious covenant in my view where the 2 parties are bound by the shed blood ----maybe also symbolizing the New Covenant of Grace which was to come ??
Verse 11 ----symbolizing the foes of Israel who will come against them ----and Abraham driving them away show his faith and relationship with God -----
These verses are in the future ---12-16
This is a future vision that Abraham has when he is asleep From God describing --when the Israelites will be taken as slaves in Egypt ----and God rescues them and bring them out with all their Possessions ------even telling Abraham that he will go to his ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age -----
12 When the sun went down, Abram fell sound asleep,[ag] and great terror overwhelmed him.[ah]
13 Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain[ai] that your descendants will be strangers[aj] in a foreign country.[ak] They will be enslaved and oppressed[al] for 400 years.
14 But I will execute judgment on the nation that they will serve.[am] Afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 But as for you,[an] you will go to your ancestors[ao] in peace and be buried at a good old age.[ap]
16 In the fourth generation[aq] your descendants[ar] will return here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its limit.”[as]
If you do your research --the Amorites along with others occupied Canaan area and they were a wicked people and God was waiting for them to reach their full limit of sinful deeds before He word drive these people from the land he was promising to Abraham and ----Abraham's descendants ----
verse
17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking firepot with a flaming torch[at] passed between the animal parts.[au]
18 That day the Lord made a covenant[av] with Abram: “To your descendants I give[aw] this land, from the river of Egypt[ax] to the great river, the Euphrates River—
19 the land[ay] of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”[az]
verse 17
7 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking firepot with a flaming torch[at] passed between the animal parts.[au]
The fire passing between the animal parts -----Fire represents the presents of God -----so God was sealing the covenant with Abraham -----
jimkenney12
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All of these stories were passed from generation to generation as oral stories. I wonder if Abram was the story teller or if someone else on his camp had that responsibility. Who might have been witnesses to the covenant? The Book of Genesis that we have was created by priests and scholars in Babylon from older documents. The story of the covenant must have had special meaning for them.
paradox3
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Good morning! Here is Genesis 16.
Snoopy's Snappy Review: New life!
www.biblegateway.com
Serai asks Abram to take her Egyptian servant, Hagar, as his wife (concubine?) so that he will be able to have an heir.
When Hagar becomes pregnant, she begins to resent Serai.The animosity between the two women continues. No surprise, right? Abram tries to stay out of it.
An angel of the Lord comes to Hagar and tells her she will have a son. His name will be Ishmael. He will be a wild donkey of a man and will live apart from his brothers. He will be hostile to others and they will be hostile to him.
Tradition has it that Ishmael is the ancestor of the prophet Muhammad in Islam.
Snoopy's Snappy Review: New life!
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 16 - New English Translation
The Birth of Ishmael - Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had not given birth to any children, but she had an Egyptian servant named Hagar. So Sarai said to Abram, “Since the LORD has prevented me from having children, please sleep with my servant. Perhaps I can have a family by her.” Abram did what Sarai...
Serai asks Abram to take her Egyptian servant, Hagar, as his wife (concubine?) so that he will be able to have an heir.
When Hagar becomes pregnant, she begins to resent Serai.The animosity between the two women continues. No surprise, right? Abram tries to stay out of it.
An angel of the Lord comes to Hagar and tells her she will have a son. His name will be Ishmael. He will be a wild donkey of a man and will live apart from his brothers. He will be hostile to others and they will be hostile to him.
Tradition has it that Ishmael is the ancestor of the prophet Muhammad in Islam.
The Quran says Ishmael (Ismail?) was a patient, good and righteous man.
Ismail is considered an ancestor of Mohammed and son of Ibrahim.
It seems donkey doesn't apply to him in Islam.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
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Hence the term "Abrahamic" faiths, referring to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, all of which in some way revere and trace back to Abraham.
I think the portrayal of Ismail/Ishmael as a "wild donkey" living apart with his "brothers" (not that any exist yet or the whole Hagar thing wouldn't have happened) is kind of saying that the idea of Abram having an heir with Serai's
And given the history of masters sexually using/abusing their slaves, one wonders if this is as much Serai accepting and trying to justify Abram's fooling around with the slave girls as her actually suggesting the idea.
paradox3
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@Waterfall
Donkeys appear many times in the Bible and they are regarded positively. Some commentators suggest that portraying Ishmael as a "wild donkey" was actually a compliment. Some say it implies he will have his freedom and not live as the son of a slave.
Donkeys appear many times in the Bible and they are regarded positively. Some commentators suggest that portraying Ishmael as a "wild donkey" was actually a compliment. Some say it implies he will have his freedom and not live as the son of a slave.
paradox3
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And (ahem). Does anyone think sexual prowess might be implied as well?
Apparently there is a place in the Bible which expresses admiration for the genitals of donkeys. It sometimes comes up for consideration when atheists point out how ridiculous the bible is.
Wild donkeys are herd animals. Usually a herd consists of one male and several females. There can be additional males in the group as long as they remain subservient.
Apparently there is a place in the Bible which expresses admiration for the genitals of donkeys. It sometimes comes up for consideration when atheists point out how ridiculous the bible is.
Wild donkeys are herd animals. Usually a herd consists of one male and several females. There can be additional males in the group as long as they remain subservient.
I think if I'd rather be compared to a horse....if I were a man...lol