GENESIS: Snoopy's Short & Snappy Review

[paradox3]

Anyone notice that the angel of the Lord used a metaphor?

 

[jimkenney12]

This chapter started a story with several weird parts. The story is the merger of at least two stories

 

[paradox3]

This chapter started a story with several weird parts. The story is the merger of at least two stories

This seems to happen quite often in Genesis

 

[unsafe]

The Birth of Ishmael​

16 Now Sarai,[a] Abram’s wife, had not given birth to any children,[b] but she had an Egyptian servant[c] named Hagar.[d] 2 So Sarai said to Abram, “Since[e] the Lord has prevented me from having children, please sleep with[f] my servant. Perhaps I can have a family by her.”[g] Abram did what[h] Sarai told him

So here we see Sarai blaming God from preventing her from having Children ------now the scripture doesn't tells us that it was God that kept her from having children ----but God had a plan for the future coming of His Son and Abraham and Sarai were part of that Plan ---so God may well have prevented Sarai from having children----

This is an interesting read -----

What does Genesis 16:2 mean? | BibleRef.com

So Sarai said to Abram, 'See now, the Lord has prevented me from bearing children. Please have relations with my slave woman; perhaps I will obtain children through her.' And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. - What is the meaning of Genesis 16:2?

www.bibleref.com

Her plan may well have been a normal custom in the culture of their day. If a wife could not bear a child herself, she could assign the role to a servant who would become another wife to the husband. If the servant became pregnant, the child would still belong to the first wife, as the servant was her property. As repulsive as that may sound to our modern ears, it was the way of the time. And, the "slavery" of that era was very different from the brutality modern readers assume when they encounter that word.

This what Sarai says here is interesting as well ----

Perhaps I can have a family by her.”[g] Abram did what[h] Sarai told him

Again the woman is the instigator of bringing disobedience and unbelief of what God had said to Abraham ----Eve enticed Adam in the Garden ---and Adam took the forbidden fruit from Eve ----here Abraham follows what Sarai presents to him as an alternative to her unbelief and distrust in God for her not being able to bear Children ---Abraham should have known better than to go against God's promise =but he made the bad choice to

Again bad decisions bring bad consequences -----jealousy and resentment creeps in to Sarai's mind and mistreatment of Hagar is the order of the day ----

Here Sarai blames Abraham for her what she is feeling

4 When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress.

5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering.

The Blame Game comes into play ------Eve blamed the serpent ---Adam blamed Eve ----Sarai blames Abraham ---


No one wants to take the responsibility for their Disobedience and Distrust in what God has said -----

 

[paradox3]

Interesting that God did not punish Ishmael. There's a good argument that Abram and Serai acted out of turn. Remember when God punished Canaan for the offense of his father? Ham had looked upon Noah naked and failed to cover him up.

 

[Mendalla]

And, the "slavery" of that era was very different from the brutality modern readers assume when they encounter that word.

Be careful there. Ancient slavery was plenty brutal. Any system that treats people as property inevitably will be. Roman slaves, for instance, could only give testimony in court under torture. It was assumed they would not tell the truth otherwise. OTOH, the Roman system left lots of leeway for freeing slaves and "freedmen" as they were known could be quite successful and influential. It also lacked the racial element of European and American slavery in the modern era. Many Roman slaves were from other European cultures and were taken in battle or as conquered peoples. For instance, Roman senators and equestrians (wealthy plebians) often had Greek slaves, valued for their education, as scribes and secretaries.

 

[GordW]

The Quran says Ishmael (Ismail?) was a patient, good and righteous man.
Ismail is considered an ancestor of Mohammed and son of Ibrahim.
It seems donkey doesn't apply to him in Islam.

Well one is written by the people who claim descent from Isaac, the other by those who claim descent from Ishmael/Ismail. I think that comes close to explaining it.

 

[Waterfall]

Well one is written by the people who claim descent from Isaac, the other by those who claim descent from Ishmael/Ismail. I think that comes close to explaining it.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[unsafe]

Hagar identifies the Angel of the Lord here as God who sees ----and she sees God verse 13 ---below

11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the Lord has heard of your misery.

I say ------Here we see God's Agape and Mercy towards Hagar for her predicament she is in

12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”
13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.

The Hebrew word for wild donkey is

Strong's Concordance
pere: a wild donkey
Genesis 16:12 (J) a wild ass of a man (Ishmael as a free nomad); figurative of wilfulness

I say -------Verse 12 gives us the Curse God places upon Ishmael ----

his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”

We see that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born ----

This is an interesting point here to remember as we go into the next chapter as there is a point of Time that Abraham because of his unbelief and distrust that he could bear a child thsat God does not communicate with Abraham for some time -----here he is 86 ---next chapter he is older ----

The take away here is that Ishmael was born under a slave woman ------Sarai and Abraham fell from relying on God to provide what He said he would --to relying on their own human thinking as to how they could have a child -----bad thinking and bad choices --bring bad consequences ---you reap what you sow ---

 

[BetteTheRed]

The take away here is that Ishmael was born under a slave woman ------Sarai and Abraham fell from relying on God to provide what He said he would --to relying on their own human thinking as to how they could have a child -----bad thinking and bad choices --bring bad consequences ---you reap what you sow ---

As far as I can see in the text Abram was the only one that got the promise from Godde regarding the number of his descendants. The texts I see say "his". Why, if it were culturally appropriate as per your post below, would this be a problem to Godde? He didn't promise Abram and Serai, he promised Abram initially.

Her plan may well have been a normal custom in the culture of their day. If a wife could not bear a child herself, she could assign the role to a servant who would become another wife to the husband. If the servant became pregnant, the child would still belong to the first wife, as the servant was her property. As repulsive as that may sound to our modern ears, it was the way of the time.

 

[unsafe]

Why, if it were culturally appropriate as per your post below, would this be a problem to Godde

Ishmael was not part of God's plan to be an heir -----Isaac was to be the heir of the promise not Ishmael ---Ishmael was born out of fleshy self works --Sarat took matters into her own hands and disregarded God altogether and Abraham went along with his wife ----this showed their lack of Faith and distrust in God to do as He said He would do ----

-Isaac would be born from Spiritual means as Sarai was unable to bear children according to scripture and God would have had to make her womb fertile to bear a child from Abraham ----the heir was to be born from Sarai not Hagar -----

Don't know if that answers your Question ?

 

[paradox3]

I say -------Verse 12 gives us the Curse God places upon Ishmael ----

his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”

I am not reading this as God placing a curse on Ishmael. I see the angel pointing out certain inevitable consequences for a child born to a slave wife or concubine.

At any rate, God later promises Ishmael many descendants which seems inconsistent with a curse.

The take away here is that Ishmael was born under a slave woman ------Sarai and Abraham fell from relying on God to provide what He said he would --to relying on their own human thinking as to how they could have a child -----bad thinking and bad choices --bring bad consequences ---you reap what you sow ---

Yes I can certainly see the argument that Abram and/ or Serai erred in making the decision about Hagar.

 

[unsafe]

I am not reading this as God placing a curse on Ishmael.

he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”

This is definitely not a Blessing God Predicts and imparts on Ishmael ----not here anyway ---but He does eventually bless Ishmael and Hagar both-----

 

[Delightful Life]

Good morning! Here is Genesis 11:

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 11 - New English Translation

The Dispersion of the Nations at Babel - The whole earth had a common language and a common vocabulary. When the people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. Then they said to one another, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” (They had brick instead of...

www.biblegateway.com

As the story opens, all people share a common language. They move eastward and settle on a plain in Shinar.

They bake bricks and start building a city with a tower reaching to the heavens. They want to make a name for themselves and God is not pleased. Nothing will be beyond these people!

God comes down to earth and confuses the people's language so they won't be able to understand each other. They are scattered across the entire earth and stop building the city.

The genealogy from Shem to Abraham ends the chapter.

I really like this bit because it shows that human beings can become like Gods (if you believe in the Plural Elohim being multiple Goddesses) or the Trinity :3

Transhumanism and maybe Progressvism built into the Bible

YAHOO!!! :3

And here is God not being a complete prick to those humans

(Of course, there is the aspect to explain how we have multiple languages instead of just one...)

Fun thread :3

 

[Delightful Life]

Anyone notice that the angel of the Lord used a metaphor?

Makes sense
Angels ARE metaphors
Fascinating to me their "real" name
Messengers
And their depictions
Scary, alien buggers
No wonder they go "Be Not Afraid" all the time :3

 

[paradox3]

Fun thread :3

Thanks. I am enjoying hosting it.

Makes sense
Angels ARE metaphors
Fascinating to me their "real" name
Messengers
And their depictions
Scary, alien buggers
No wonder they go "Be Not Afraid" all the time :3

When God uses the pronoun "we" it might refer to God and the angels. Yes, they are generally messengers but God also used them to guard the gate to the Garden of Eden.

And they seem to be scary indeed. I have the impression they are loud and noisy but I am not sure where I picked this up. Angels must be large, too. When they interbreed with humans (Genesis 6) a race of giants is the result.

 

[paradox3]

Good morning! Here is Genesis 17. It is an important story about our spiritual ancestors.

Snoopy's Snappy Review: Oh yikes!

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 17 - New English Translation

The Sign of the Covenant - When Abram was 99 years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am the Sovereign God. Walk before me and be blameless. Then I will confirm my covenant between me and you, and I will give you a multitude of descendants.” Abram bowed down with his face to the ground...

www.biblegateway.com

God appears before Abram and says, "Walk with me and be blameless. I will confirm my covenant with you. "

God promises Abram many descendants and gives them the whole land of Canaan. God changes Abram's name to Abraham.

God imposes the covenantal requirement of circumcision. Every male over the age of eight days must be circumcised. This applies equally to males born in the household and to those purchased from foreigners.

God changes Serai's name to Sarah. God vows to bless her and give her a son. Abraham speaks up for Ishmael and God promises to make him fruitful. He will become the father of 12 princes and be made into a great nation.

But Sarah will bear Isaac. And God's covenant will be with him.

Abraham, Ishmael and all other males of the household are circumcised that day.

 

[paradox3]

Circumcision has been practiced throughout the world's history by many cultures, sometimes as a puberty ritual. There are several theories about the reason for it . . . control of sexuality, cleanliness, endurance of pain, etc.

We can only speculate about God's reason in Genesis. Sometimes it is thought to be related to the covenantal practice of cutting an animal in two. (Genesis 15)

 

[Waterfall]

Circumcision has been practiced throughout the world's history by many cultures, sometimes as a puberty ritual. There are several theories about the reason for it . . . control of sexuality, cleanliness, endurance of pain, etc.

We can only speculate about God's reason in Genesis. Sometimes it is thought to be related to the covenantal practice of cutting an animal in two. (Genesis 15)

Well we could take that reasoning even further back, as to why God created man with a foreskin in the first place?

 

[Mendalla]

Well we could take that reasoning even further back, as to why God created man with a foreskin in the first place?

Indeed. In fact, the cleanliness argument holds some basis I hear, but not enough to really justify it. In the end, it's a cosmetic or religious procedure, not a medical one.