Hey Jude! (Jude 1: 1 - 25)

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Nope to you too.

They demanded that Lot violate the law of hospitality when it came to strangers, even after he offered them his virgin daughters in the guests' stead.

The real sin of Sodom?

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
 
They violated the rule of hospitality that applied to all communities in the middle east. When Jesus sent out his disciples, he said that sny community that refused to be hospitable to the disciples would suffer more than Sodom. I understand this passage to imply violation of the law of hospitality was the reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
I do like Jude actually, in that he wants us to be diligent to flush out false teachers that were changing the original teachings of Jesus. Lord only knows if we are following corrupted teachings from long ago and over time even now.
 
BetteTheRed said:
They demanded that Lot violate the law of hospitality when it came to strangers, even after he offered them his virgin daughters in the guests' stead.
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When the Sodomites express their desire to "know" the male strangers, they don't mean a friendly acquaintance, but rather sexual humiliation.
Lot recognizes the meaning of their "know" as sexual humiliation and offers the hostile Sodomites his own virgin daughters to rape to avoid the humiliating rape of his male guests. What you don't get is that the Hebrew "know" in such contexts means "to have sex with." The NRSV note on this recognizes that this is not a controversial claim in academic circles. In Jer. 23:14 God identifies the sin of Sodom as "adultery" and "lies" just as Genesis does. The fact that Ezekiel expands the guilt of Sodom to include other sins is irrelevant to the plain meaning of the Genesis Hebrew text.

BetteTheRed said:
The real sin of Sodom?

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Click to expand...
 
Mystic, without this probably fictitious letter, there is no association, biblically, between Sodom and homosexual rape.

Rape is a common tool of aggression. When Lot offers his virgin daughters to rape instead of his angelic strangers, he is offering extreme protection/hospitality to those strangers.

And you seem unable to comment on Ezekiel.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Mystic, without this probably fictitious letter, there is no association, biblically, between Sodom and homosexual rape.

Rape is a common tool of aggression. When Lot offers his virgin daughters to rape instead of his angelic strangers, he is offering extreme protection/hospitality to those strangers.
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Duh. if the Sodomites just want to "know" the male strangers in the usual sense, there would be no reason to offer his virgin daughters for rape.
Lot's hospitality wants to protect his guests from homosexual rape at the expense of his daughters. You keep ducking the sexual meaning of the Hebrew word for "know", but then you don't know Hebrew. The NRSV and all OT academic commentaries on Genesis agree with my perspective and I challenge you to find even one exception in a Genesis book commentary.
BetteTheRed said:
And you seem unable to comment on Ezekiel.
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As you ignore the sexual sin interpretation in Jer.. 23:14. But neither are relevant to the plain meaning of Hebrew of Genesis 19.
 
Mystic said:
Duh. if the Sodomites just want to "know" the male strangers in the usual sense, there would be no reason to offer his virgin daughters for rape.
Lot's hospitality wants to protect his guests from homosexual rape at the expense of his daughters. You keep ducking the sexual meaning of the Hebrew word for "know", but then you don't know Hebrew. The NRSV and all OT academic commentaries on Genesis agree with my perspective and I challenge you to find even one exception in a Genesis book commentary.

As you ignore the sexual sin interpretation in Jer.. 23:14. But neither are relevant to the plain meaning of Hebrew of Genesis 19.
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You need a lesson on why raping men or women is not to "get to know" them, but an act of violence.....period!
And it was also an act of violence against the daughter and concubine, although this doesn't seem to be such an issue for many that preach or teach this story, instead the focus is on what the men's sexual orientation is during a non consensual rape?
I do wonder why the father offered his daughter and concubine to be raped and that isn't as much of an issue in this story as men (angels) getting raped by men.....this was violence and humiliation as we have just seen in our own time in Israel.....the "knowing" was violent.
 
The fundamental sin was failure to provide safe hospitality. The men wanting to tape the visitors were not necessarily homosexual. Mystic, please comment on the instructions Jesus gave to his disciples when he sent them out.
 
Waterfall said:
I do like Jude actually, in that he wants us to be diligent to flush out false teachers that were changing the original teachings of Jesus. Lord only knows if we are following corrupted teachings from long ago and over time even now.
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Jude himself seems to relay Christ's teachings like they are on steroids. Maybe Jude is one of those "certain men" (v. 4) ;)

Just kidding. Sort of.
 
Mystic said:
"Jude" is a mistranslation used to distinguish this "Judas" from Judas the traitor. Jesus' brother Judas may be the Judas who speaks in John 14:22:
"Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him: "Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
Strikingly, Judas alludes to 1 Enoch in vss. 6, 14-15 and to the Testament of Moses in vs. 9.
Judas is combatting a heresy that constues God's grace as license to commit sexual immorality with impunity.
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It is not a mistranslation ... only a variant because of the great desire for diversity ... the one way folk shoot that down because of narrow, shortsightedness causing spot in Ciel ... might be sky or the night Eire ... and recall that Jude once meant power that may descend over time to be lesser than the authority believed and thus subversive and bringing down the elevated conceptions that run away with themselves ... allowing for insanity on the spot!

The spot was deeper than it first appeared or incarnated ... generation of phun Deis? Difficult spots ...
 
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jimkenney12 said:
Jude is definitely on my list of biblical books that I would not use as a guide
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Your reluctance to use Jude is certainly understandable. It's a tough and dramatic passage. God's judgment is swift and harsh & about to arrive at any time.

But what about the mercy Jude introduces in v. 21?

We anticipate the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings eternal life, Jude writes. And he calls for mercy on those who waver.
 
And ever after in the spirit of projection ... aliens were rejected so the powers wouldn't skewer them ... roasting in the temple?

Thy rod and staff do cause a rise ... stimulus ... word was given (as grace, or Adoni) to see what the vernacular would do with it in sowing great myths about displaced logi ... logi just because actively passive in settled in under the cover of vast nonsense ... thus lost souls ... a sophisticated process! Some even say that love will be the death of a sharper soul ... numbed off ...

Life is just too dramatic at times ... especially when certain damages are allowed for foul mouthing chic characters ... powers rant about justice and unreasonable running off at the mouth about unreliable wishes ... irresponsible? Where could this function be stored and hoarded ...
 
Considering the diversity of documents that seemed to be circulating at the time, his certainty that he has the right doctrine seems to be a mix of arrogance and fear. If he witnessed the death of Jesus, he might be a bit traumatized. He reacted or responded to a report by someone in the community about what was happening so we do not know what the specific issue is though it is about sexual expression of some sort. His response reminds me of responses to pairings between people of different classes, religions, races along with homosexuality and transgender issues.
 
The "certain men" are committing unspecified sexual sin i.e. defiling the flesh in v. 8

But that's not all they are doing.

They deny Jesus and reject authority. They are greedy and only serve themselves at the love feasts. They insult the glorious. They grumble and find fault & give bombastic speeches.

Quite a bunch of dudes to find in a church community!
 
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