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If congregations include being accessible to and connected to their communities as part of their mission, they need to be visible in the community.
 
jimkenney12 said:
Each small congregation will have one or more peoe who walk there and probably some who have already travelled for fifteen or more minutes to get there. Adding another fifteen minutes will be a real burden.
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And it's not when they merge in the city? Arva United merged with Siloam here in London. Those are easily 15-20 minutes drive apart, even on a Sunday morning when Fanshawe and Sunningdale are a bit saner than during commuter times. And definitely not walkable. Bikeable, maybe. And Arva is outside the city limits so not serviced by transit. Nor, for that matter, is Siloam as far as I know, since is still kind of on the edge with only a few neighbouring buildings.

Save in rare cases like if First St. Andrew's and Met in downtown London were to merge (they are only a block apart), mergers are generally going to have these issues and that doesn't mean you keep paying to maintain a nearly empty building until a crisis forces the issue. It means you start planning early so that these issues aren't lost in a rush when that crisis occurs. Seems to me too many churches cross their fingers and carry on instead of looking at their current sustainability, and then all hell breaks loose when the roof or heating or something needs major repairs.
 
Both church services went well. I started the singing within my alto range, so I actually did an okay job leading the singing. And I pointed out how nice it was to hear everyone's voices. Now...the merging thing is a big question. One church had 6 people (and one was a friend who came because of me!), and one had 9. They used to have joint services in the summer, but have decided against it this year. They depend on lay worship leaders or retired ministers, and have a different worship leader each week. I usually go there 4 times a year. Usually the numbers are a little higher in the congregation, but illness and a few vacations have had an impact. The higher numbers are usually 10 or 12 at one, and 20 at the other. One is a country church and one is a small town church. Both have their charms.
 
jimkenney12 said:
Nancy, the most important benefit for worship services for small congregations is seeing each other. As long as your leadership is compassionate, they will not be concerned about the music.

Each small congregation will have one or more peoe who walk there and probably some who have already travelled for fifteen or more minutes to get there. Adding another fifteen minutes will be a real burden.
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Really laughing to myself about this 15 minutes thing. I live in a large suburban area and the closest United Church to me is anywhere from a 12 to a 20 minute drive depending on traffic.

There used to be a closer one (20 minute walk) but it has closed.
 
I am glad the services went well.

Not merging does not equal doing things the same way. Some rural churches have very low maintenance costs. One where I will be doing a service this summer has no utilities. One I served several years ago went to a model of lay led services most Sundays and a minister led service once a month with the church seen as much as a music venue as a sanctuary.

In my first pastoral charge, I visited the minister in the larger neighbouring charge. There had been a rural parish around that community with 7 churches. Over time all 7 rural congregations closed and merged with the town church. The town church added about 150 families to their pastoral list and about 5 active members.

Merger is not always the answer for declining churches.
 
jimkenney12 said:
If congregations include being accessible to and connected to their communities as part of their mission, they need to be visible in the community.
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This may be true for small rural congregations. In a city like mine, there are no defined "communities" for the various United Church congregations. We are more like a patchwork quilt with our outreach efforts and our membership rosters.
 
Yes I know that mergers are not always the answer, no matter how logical a solution they appear to be.

But one church with attendance of 6 and another with attendance of 9 just seems ridiculous to me. Sorry for saying this so bluntly but I can't see this situation as sustainable
 
jimkenney12 said:
Merger is not always the answer for declining churches.
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paradox3 said:
But one church with attendance of 6 and another with attendance of 9 just seems ridiculous to me. Sorry for saying this so bluntly but I can't see this situation as sustainable
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I think Paradox3 nicely answered Jim here. There's declining and there's dead in the water. 15 people spread across two churches is likely the latter. And I'll bet there was not a single person in attendance younger than me.

Which is another whole sustainability issue. How does a church whose members are mostly on fixed incomes or modest pension incomes manage a major capital campaign or even a major increase in operating costs (as might be coming given current inflation)? Does the church as a denomination even have enough people of working age (say, 25-65) to be sustainable in the long haul?
 
Mendalla said:
I think Paradox3 nicely answered Jim here. There's declining and there's dead in the water. 15 people spread across two churches is likely the latter. And I'll bet there was not a single person in attendance younger than me.

Which is another whole sustainability issue. How does a church whose members are mostly on fixed incomes or modest pension incomes manage a major capital campaign or even a major increase in operating costs (as might be coming given current inflation)? Does the church as a denomination even have enough people of working age (say, 25-65) to be sustainable in the long haul?
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There was one church congregation in the news here in NS lately. They had up to 20 regular attenders and during Covid no in person service. It so happened that a pipe burst in the basement and water kept running, but didn’t do damage because they had a sump pump. They ended up having a $5000+ water bill and complained about that, saying they need to not have to pay the whole bill. The insurance didn’t cover that, because of the sump pump, there was actually no damage. Their complaint against the bill did not change anything with the water bill, but they got $3000+ in donations through the news report.
This will just put off what is already on the horizon. I found it odd, that they even thought they would not have to pay that bill- because they were a congregation? Everyone else has to pay their bills.
I think the best the national churches could do, is to have teams assist congregations to seriously look at themselves and assist with grief and finding a solution.
 
The national church does have those resources available. Congregations have to want to use them. The church we started attending is part of a three point pastoral charge and they are part of Laurentian Area Ministries which has 7 churches. They use media and Zoom in a mix of services.
 
I've always felt that doing two complete services for churches so close together, and with so many empty spots in the pews, feels a little like a waste of time. But...I waste my time in worse ways, I guess. They have a retired minister who does communion and oversees the two churches. When he leads worship, he insists on a joint service and they comply. I'm an outsider in the whole thing...just a guest who leads worship 4 times a year. So, my grumblings are merely personal, and maybe questioning, but have no effect on the decisions the two churches make. They aren't the only area church in trouble: two down-town churches even closer together (5 minute walk away), and very expensive to run, are struggling with congregations in the ranges of 20 to 50. Churches present with different personalities, and although they can like and respect one another, they can't see merging with one another. As an outsider, I see the gifts both congregations can give to a combined effort.

The church I attend is small, but we are averaging 35 members a Sunday. But even that means we are losing money monthly. As some of our congregants pass away, our income declines. Many of us have decided that joining another church is something we will eventually need to do. We are already the result of two churches joining, which was done with much success. So, maybe we can do it again.
 
Mrs.Anteater said:
There was one church congregation in the news here in NS lately. They had up to 20 regular attenders and during Covid no in person service. It so happened that a pipe burst in the basement and water kept running, but didn’t do damage because they had a sump pump. They ended up having a $5000+ water bill and complained about that, saying they need to not have to pay the whole bill. The insurance didn’t cover that, because of the sump pump, there was actually no damage. Their complaint against the bill did not change anything with the water bill, but they got $3000+ in donations through the news report.
This will just put off what is already on the horizon. I found it odd, that they even thought they would not have to pay that bill- because they were a congregation? Everyone else has to pay their bills.
I think the best the national churches could do, is to have teams assist congregations to seriously look at themselves and assist with grief and finding a solution.
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Wha'!!!! Look at themselves??? That would require a few back steps for those so self-contained ... roughly anOBI perspective if not lumpy ...
 
Nancy said:
I've always felt that doing two complete services for churches so close together, and with so many empty spots in the pews, feels a little like a waste of time. But...I waste my time in worse ways, I guess. They have a retired minister who does communion and oversees the two churches. When he leads worship, he insists on a joint service and they comply. I'm an outsider in the whole thing...just a guest who leads worship 4 times a year. So, my grumblings are merely personal, and maybe questioning, but have no effect on the decisions the two churches make. They aren't the only area church in trouble: two down-town churches even closer together (5 minute walk away), and very expensive to run, are struggling with congregations in the ranges of 20 to 50. Churches present with different personalities, and although they can like and respect one another, they can't see merging with one another. As an outsider, I see the gifts both congregations can give to a combined effort.

The church I attend is small, but we are averaging 35 members a Sunday. But even that means we are losing money monthly. As some of our congregants pass away, our income declines. Many of us have decided that joining another church is something we will eventually need to do. We are already the result of two churches joining, which was done with much success. So, maybe we can do it again.
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In essence this rings true to what I deal with ... trying to support some old folk like me in communion and connection ... although the essence seems to by dying along with any scrap of extended thought or intelligence about how the enigma will end.

Yet for years such knowledge was declared evil ... it went against desires ... and thus intelligence passed ... creating past in my mind something to dig up ... one must appreciate all things and digest them for what value is there ... myth???? Perhaps ...
 
I think there needs to be a way to ask the members some why and what questions. Why worship separately? Why not share worship and find another time and reason to indulge in fellowship for the members of the congregation? Why keep going as a congregation? (What is your mission as a congregation?). What difference would it make to the community if the church closed? What difference would it make to you if the church closed? How important is that difference? What opportunities are there for your congregation to connect with other people in the community? What is needed to be a congregation?

Sometime groups act out of habit rather than intention. Asking questions prompts reflection that can challenge habits that are no longer helpful.
 
jimkenney12 said:
I think there needs to be a way to ask the members some why and what questions. Why worship separately? Why not share worship and find another time and reason to indulge in fellowship for the members of the congregation? Why keep going as a congregation? (What is your mission as a congregation?). What difference would it make to the community if the church closed? What difference would it make to you if the church closed? How important is that difference? What opportunities are there for your congregation to connect with other people in the community? What is needed to be a congregation?

Sometime groups act out of habit rather than intention. Asking questions prompts reflection that can challenge habits that are no longer helpful.
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I like this idea. Maybe a survey to start to prompt thinking, then a town hall to discuss the answers as a group.

Exploration of whether the church building can be turned into some kind of shared use facility in cooperation with other organizations (not necessarily religious ones) so that costs can be spread around a bit might be another option.
 
Mendalla said:
I like this idea. Maybe a survey to start to prompt thinking, then a town hall to discuss the answers as a group.

Exploration of whether the church building can be turned into some kind of shared use facility in cooperation with other organizations (not necessarily religious ones) so that costs can be spread around a bit might be another option.
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We did this once under a JNAC process ... much revealed and later a lot of it ignored as it was not pleasing info!

In short we cannot accept bad NU's as it bears poorly! We are not conditioned for it ...
 
Back to the topic of "flinty" ... does this ensure sharpness in a situation involving irony?

Should folk be sharper or more into logy (as dull and dense) what authorities despise because of frequently a depreciation of the sharper end of the rub ... like Rueben in that circle including Judy 'n ... expect implications to the west (Ephraim) and north (Dan)?

On the ocean outlined should its health be kept in balance? May avoid those funny outbreaks like blue-green algae! They tend to be happy living in our waste ... even if encouraging cyanide ... Prussian Blues?
 
Decisions about church amalgamations and closures are tough ones. Hard to make and hard to carry out emotionally & logistically.

In the eastern part of Toronto where I live we have seen both. We have even seen the eventual closure of an amalgamated congregation.

Good list of questions though @jimkenney12
 
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