Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The disability rights movement shares more in common with transgender than any other rights groups because it is people with a biological difference in what a body is seen as "supposed to look (move, do) like" vs. what it does look like that sets us apart from mainstream norms but we still strive to be equal on our own terms. @RitaTG

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@RitaTG this video might help you to see where I'm coming from

 

[RitaTG]

I watched the video Kimmo .... and very carefully ......
Now consider a personal case ..... my family member has MS.....
She is steadily declining and the prognosis is that she will continually get worse and eventually ..... well you get it...
She loves her family and loves living and works hard everyday to get the most out of it and to give as much of her love as she can. She wants to determine when enough is enough ...... others in her group feel the same.....
These are disabled persons that value life and want the right to decide for themselves when enough is enough.
When does their right to do something about their suffering take a back seat to the desire of others?
She will soon be in a powered wheelchair and even now has difficulty doing basic personal care chores.
The pain is increasing and the physical abilities are in rapid decline.
Would you like to look her in the eye and tell her that her deciding to end her life at an appropriate time is selfish because just maybe some other diasbled person will somehow feel devalued or threatened by her personal decision?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I watched the video Kimmo .... and very carefully ......
Now consider a personal case ..... my family member has MS.....
She is steadily declining and the prognosis is that she will continually get worse and eventually ..... well you get it...
She loves her family and loves living and works hard everyday to get the most out of it and to give as much of her love as she can. She wants to determine when enough is enough ...... others in her group feel the same.....
These are disabled persons that value life and want the right to decide for themselves when enough is enough.
When does their right to do something about their suffering take a back seat to the desire of others?
She will soon be in a powered wheelchair and even now has difficulty doing basic personal care chores.
The pain is increasing and the physical abilities are in rapid decline.
Would you like to look her in the eye and tell her that her deciding to end her life at an appropriate time is selfish because just maybe some other diasbled person will somehow feel devalued or threatened by her personal decision?

Is there any possibility of remission? A person's choice is their own but I do think if doctors were to assist people with MS to kill themselves it does undermine disability rights and MS awareness and treatment. A doctor should be there to help heal. That doesn't mean I don't empathize that your loved one is suffering at all.

 

[RitaTG]

Understood that you empathize with her Kimmo .... I sense no ill will ... never have...
In her case the prognosis is that there will be a rapid severe decline and remission is not expected.
She has and continues to explore all available treatments to at least slow down the disease.
She is very involved with her care and is certainly a fighter with a bright positive grateful attitude and an inspiration to us all.
I consider this like cancer ... fight fight fight .... but there come as time to say enough.....
That in no way undermines the rights of this suffering with cancer and in no way undermines treatment and research.
To me .... she deserves the right to say when enough is enough..... and I admire her for the courage she shows in facing that decision when it is time.

 

[DaisyJane]

Correct .....
Once again .. just because my friend could not stand it anymore in no way devalues my perception of my worth.
As a community .... the struggle is very personal and what another trans person happens to think of themselves is not the major influence at all.
A far bigger concern is the equality that society extends to us. I would expect that it is rather the same in the disabled community.

What Rita said!

 

[revjohn]

"the CMA is concerned

Which again is interpretation of the reporter filing the piece and not a quote actually attributed to the President of the CMA.

is not grey it is quite clear that they are unsure

Unless you take the time to actually read what Dr. Simpson is actually quoted as saying. It is Dr. Simpson who uses the term "greyzone" and it is Dr. Simpson who suggests that the responsibility for determining competency be given to a panel and not one singular doctor.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Understood that you empathize with her Kimmo .... I sense no ill will ... never have...
In her case the prognosis is that there will be a rapid severe decline and remission is not expected.
She has and continues to explore all available treatments to at least slow down the disease.
She is very involved with her care and is certainly a fighter with a bright positive grateful attitude and an inspiration to us all.
I consider this like cancer ... fight fight fight .... but there come as time to say enough.....
That in no way undermines the rights of this suffering with cancer and in no way undermines treatment and research.
To me .... she deserves the right to say when enough is enough..... and I admire her for the courage she shows in facing that decision when it is time.

I understand how you feel in her case. My understanding is there are different types of MS. Some people experience 'attacks' and then remission, chronically, others it is more progressive and aggressive. So, that is not unlike terminal illness.

The reason I said if doctors began assisting in suicides of people with MS in general then - the slippery slope is that is what could become the more the norm rather than funding for research and cures - an easy way out of not finding options to help. And I don't think that's a doctor's right. Their job is to treat and heal whenever possible.

 

[DaisyJane]

I honestly don't see this legislation as a threat to a search for cure, rehabilitation, social justice, and so on. The will to live, and to be healthy, is a very strong thing.

Just because a pain-free death is available I don't see people sprinting to use that option unless all other options have been exhausted.

 

[RitaTG]

And that my dear Kimmo is why we need to have a lot of input into the new law.....
That is why we have to make sure the requirements and screening process is so thorough and careful and that the right experts are involved.
For my loved one .... when it is time she will know .... that I trust .... she deserves the right to die with dignity on her terms.
In the case of cancer .... the drive for research has not diminished one iota because of those that say they have had enough. Actually the impetus for research and new treatments is intensified because we don't want to see them giving up.
I am all for stringent requirements and I feel that the supreme court ruling lays the groundwork for just that.
For me .... this is personal .... this is about my family.... I have a stake in this too....
I want the right to be there .... and I need it to be right ... I too need the assurance that the decision was carefully vetted ... to be under the right conditions and only at the right time.
Stringent requirements .... yes indeed .... this is the most heavy decision ..... I need it to be right.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Which again is interpretation of the reporter filing the piece and not a quote actually attributed to the President of the CMA.



Unless you take the time to actually read what Dr. Simpson is actually quoted as saying. It is Dr. Simpson who uses the term "greyzone" and it is Dr. Simpson who suggests that the responsibility for determining competency be given to a panel and not one singular doctor.

What about the definition of 'irremediable' in question?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I honestly don't see this legislation as a threat to a search for cure, rehabilitation, social justice, and so on. The will to live, and to be healthy, is a very strong thing.

Just because a pain-free death is available I don't see people sprinting to use that option unless all other options have been exhausted.

The will to live may be a strong thing. The will to fund is often not. And dangerous precedents could be set.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

What Rita said!

Disagree with regard to disability. But I think Rita and I have more understanding overall now .

 

[ChemGal]

Is there any possibility of remission? A person's choice is their own but I do think if doctors were to assist people with MS to kill themselves it does undermine disability rights and MS awareness and treatment. A doctor should be there to help heal. That doesn't mean I don't empathize that your loved one is suffering at all.

I think treating a whole group of people with a diagnosis the same way as one person is undermining their rights. People need to be looked at individually.

 

[RitaTG]

Indeed we do Kimmo ......

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I honestly don't see this legislation as a threat to a search for cure, rehabilitation, social justice, and so on. The will to live, and to be healthy, is a very strong thing.

Just because a pain-free death is available I don't see people sprinting to use that option unless all other options have been exhausted.

With all due respect, I think you are too confident that people will continue to respect people with disabilities' will to live over financial and bureaucratic concerns as much as you think they would.

I can tell you that there are so many problems with policy and red tape as it is now it's like the powers that be never really gave that much of a damn. It's just obligatory. They certainly don't care that so many PWDs struggle in poverty.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think treating a whole group of people with a diagnosis the same way as one person is undermining their rights. People need to be looked at individually.

Agreed. But from the perspective of seeing people with the same diagnosis as one person who chooses suicide, fall through the cracks. Very careful measures need to be in place to prevent unnecessary death.

 

[Ritafee]

"They certainly don't care that so many PWDs struggle in poverty" ...

Every person struggling in poverty is a PWD.

This process ... handled transparently ... could become a very useful mechanism for determining the various factors influencing a persons will to live or die. If the consenting adult that is seeking physician assisted suicide is initially requested to swear an affidavit (no legal fees attached) as to their determination of why they are seeking an end to their 'suffering' ... whether or not the request ... after proper consensus ... is carried out or not ... the individuals record of request-through followup-to conclusion should become a matter of public record ... available as case studies ... I have heard more than a few doctors lament the fact that they are not allowed to script 'money' as the antidote to what is first and foremost contributing to the patient's dis-ease with the struggle of povery.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Maybe and Maybe not. The Supreme Court use the terms "grievous" and "irremediable" it also clearly set those terms into the case brought forward (Carter v. Canada) which involved a terminal illness.

That is specific and that is important because it provides additional context which help to define how those terms are applied to any individuals seeking Physician Assisted Death. Granted that may be more implicit understanding at this point in time. The various legal jurisdictions have the ability to make that implicit understanding explicit through legislation.

If the same ruling had been delivered by the Supreme Court of Canada in which terminal illness was not a factor I expect that the ruling would have been dramatically different.



While possibly true I doubt that they do not understand the meaning of the word irremediable which dictionary.com defines as: not admitting of remedy, cure or repair. Again given the Supreme Court ruling and the context of the case they were asked to rule on this points very strongly towards terminal illnesses to which there can be no remedy, cure or repair. It would seem that what becomes a significant issue is whether or not palliative care for the illness in question exists to a degree sufficient enough to mitigate the pain of the patient.



Possibly, possibly not. Again the Supreme Court did not strike down the prohibition they struck down the absolute nature of the prohibition The little door that they did open looks for specific benchmarks terminal illness being one of them. The Supreme Court did not strike down the protections for individuals considered vulnerable to inducement. Which means the protections for individuals vulnerable to inducement still exist.

While I do agree that Canada can and should do more to help persons with disabilities I do not believe that the Supreme Court declaration is equivalent to throwing persons with disabilities under a bus in either a figurative or literal sense. Nor has anybody made a compelling case that persons with disabilities are at greater risk to being murdered by family members because of the Supreme Court declaration.

Then it should've just read 'terminal'. The Supreme court has muddied the waters potentially dangerously.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

"They certainly don't care that so many PWDs struggle in poverty" ...

Every person struggling in poverty is a PWD.

This process ... handled transparently ... could become a very useful mechanism for determining the various factors influencing a persons will to live or die. If the consenting adult that is seeking physician assisted suicide is initially requested to swear an affidavit (no legal fees attached) as to their determination of why they are seeking an end to their 'suffering' ... whether or not the request ... after proper consensus ... is carried out or not ... the individuals record of request-through followup-to conclusion should become a matter of public record ... available as case studies ... I have heard more than a few doctors lament the fact that they are not allowed to script 'money' as the antidote to what is first and foremost contributing to the patient's dis-ease with the struggle of povery.

So...PWDs the sacricial lambs?? No. Things are bad enough.